Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost. Subscribe to the podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dentistry-uncensored-with-howard-farran/id916907356

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Howard Farran:  Hey it’s going to be a fun hour today with a dentist from Harvard University, Townie for a long time, David Wank. David, how did you go from Harvard University to creating books and online courses on Dentaltown about website development, search engine optimization, social media, I mean you’re really out on top of that. How did you go from dentistry to websites?

David Wank: Well I didn’t go, I guess it was a lateral shift because I still see patients five days a week and I do this also. You kind of have the same problems, because patients want to change the denture after it’s done and clients want to change a website after it’s done, so it’s the exact same thing, you just change the nature. I’ve always been a computer person I guess. My father is an attorney so he had those PC XT’s in the 80’s and in the same way that my dad can fix his car, I know my way around the hood, I’ve got a computer in front of me and that was before the days where the hard drives parked by themselves and then it was programming and coding and it took off from there. I did it to make some beer money in college and then more and more and more. Went to dental school then I got a real client and said oh let’s make this into a company.

So I did that and said, you know, we better get some legal agreements going on here and then it took off from there. And Dentaltown has been great because it’s a way to really connect with colleagues and they say, you’re on Dentaltown too, yeah, I didn’t know. So you know, it’s been great. Even the guys in my study club I met through Dentaltown so it’s really cool.

Howard Farran: So how old are you?

David Wank:  I’m 38.

Howard Farran:  38, I’m 53, so how old were you when you first got on the internet? I mean I think I was about 35.

David Wank: Well let’s see. When I was- I have a degree in English Lit so I had to talk my way into dental school because everybody was a science major, and they said how is Shakespeare going to help you in dental school? And I said talk my way out of the extraction. I want to say around when I started dental school, college, in ’94 we were using UNIX. Using Linux and Mosaic was the first browser on the Sun Spark systems. You had to go to the special labs and it was the Spark systems with Mosaic and then from there email we did, you know, with Emacs, it was Linux, it was UNIX, it was great.

Howard Farran:  So you’ve seen where this internet thing has started and where it’s gone- where is it going with websites, search engine optimization, I mean I see in my life that women are making nine out of ten appointments, I haven’t seen a woman with a telephone book in her hand in I can’t even remember. Most of everybody I know when they drop off a telephone book at your front door you just walk to the trashcan and recycle it. They’re always on their cellphone, so in a big town like Phoenix or Chicago, Dallas, you know, how do you get when mom types in New Jersey dentist or Phoenix dentist or Chicago dentist, how do they land on your site? Because that’s where it’s all going. First of all do you agree with that premise?

David Wank: Yes and no. I think the more things change the more they remain the same. I think that you’re still going to see wives making the appointments for their husbands, you’re still going to see men who can’t remember when, you know, when they’re appointment is or when their conference is so whether we’re doing it in 1750 with quill and scroll or we’re doing it in 2014 with an iPhone, I think men don’t remember to make appointments, but in that sense I think that we’re doing the same things, we’re just changing the way we do them.

Look as for the yellow pages, what I really tell people when they ask me, I say what’s the ROI? Because if I gave a lecture right now for Dentaltown and said yellow pages is the way to go, you guys would laugh me out of there and the answer is, you know show me the money? Its show me the ROI. So when anyone comes up to me and says Dr. Wank, should I do Facebook, should I do this, I say you tell me. You should know that data. You should know and if you don’t, go into your office and look it up and if you don’t know get an estimate. I mean there are plenty of people- I spoke to someone last week and they said well, we spend $500 a month on AdWords, is that good? I have no idea. If you’re getting a $10 000 case from the $500, yeah. If you’re not making anything then don’t do it, so I think what our colleagues are missing out is they’re not testing return on investment.

Everybody is so quick to think that I have a website and they’re going to find me that they kind of lose sight and then it’s kind of like- you can take a x-ray of an endo and at any angle, if you hit the right angle- right? You’re 12mm short, you go like this, and it’s a perfect endo. Same thing with the AdWords. They’ll run an AdWords campaign, spend $500, no idea what the ROI is, but you go to sleep knowing that me and the other competitors are doing AdWords, so I’m okay I can sleep well at night.

We have to admit to ourselves, AdWords isn’t right for everybody but what’s the ROI and I joke, you know, if you stand outside in a pirate outfit with colored and black teeth and that brings in white into your office, then who am I to tell you otherwise? If that’s what sells it to you.

Someone said to me the other night, he said I think its word of mouth, has there ever been a study? And I said the study doesn’t matter because you’re demographic in the middle of a suburb of New York city with an extraction looking population versus you know, a different type of practice with a younger population or an older population, you’ve got to look and see what you’re ROI is.

I mean you know, in practices- there are practices where you can do a class five amalgam, or buckle pin amalgam on nineteen, and they’re happy. There are practices where if you come after them with an amalgam, they’re calling the FDA. So you know what your office is, and you know your demographic, but you clearly have to test what kind of marketing. There are oral surgeons in the New York area who still spend a ton of money on Yellow Pages and you say that’s crazy, but that’s what their patients use who are over 65, who want the extractions, so you’ve got to test it.

I just finished a book that’s called you should test that, and that’s the God’s honest truth. You should test it. I told them, don’t come to me and ask me. You should come to me and tell me. Say how can we test, but you’ve got to be testing. I mean you know that when you, even in your office. I mean this is conversion optimization. I used to be a Temp-Bond guy, when I was a resident, and then I became a ZONE guy, and I found that ZONE wasn’t strong enough for what I was doing. I got a lot of temps out. Then I switched to Temp-Bond NE and I was happy and they just gave me TempGrip. I’m a very happy man. So I’m conversion optimization in my head. If TempGrip fell out of the patient’s head and I didn’t like it, I wouldn’t use it. You know when the vendors come in they give you 57 composites to try, well they want you to test it and see if you like it and a lot of our colleagues don’t seem to want to do that on their websites.

So when it comes to talking about getting yourself ranked, the truth is sometimes you can’t and people don’t want to hear that. I do it like a denture because I explain it in four phases. When I was learning denture, you had someone tell me to bore the mold, and then someone else told me to cut it back 2mm and I had no idea what the endgame was. So what happens is, phase one is that you want to have this website built to Google standards. Phase two; then you’re going to do whatever you’re going to do for marketing to drive that traffic to your website, whether that’s SEO, AdWords, sponsoring the school baseball team, you’re driving traffic. Phase three, then you’re like recall. Then you’re looking at your data, you’re seeing what’s happening and then you want to test to see, if I had 100 patients in the chair this month and not one of them accepted a cosmetic case, you’re not going to bring 100 more patients in and tell them the same thing.

In terms of having a website, what people don’t understand is you’ve got to be up to Google’s webmaster standards and that’s not a secret. Taking out a tooth is not a secret. This is just a certain way that you've got to do it and you build it to Google standards, because if you don’t build it to Google standards, as soon as your competitors do, you’re going to be at the bottom and you have to come prepared to the game.

There’s no point doing SEO for a website that isn’t built to the webmaster standards, which are free and publically available. Not a secret. That has to get done first.

Howard Farran:  Is that really true because I’ve been told that it’s very secretive otherwise Yahoo and Bing would be trying to?

David Wank:  Well the algorithm is a secret but Google basically says listen, if you want a webpage to rank well, here’s what we want you to do. You know, we want you to have a page with original content because Google’s in the business of making money, but they’re in the business of providing quality content. The minute I search for general dentist Phoenix and I get something that says creams are important because they help broken teeth. Oh let me see the next one- creams are important because they help broken teeth. You’re going to say Google stinks, it’s not giving me any variety.

So as soon as people say Google is not giving me quality results that make sense to me, Google’s done. So in an effort to probably make their bottom line, they’ve said we want different search results. So that’s why when you get a website and the content comes with it, it’s great, except what happens is everyone else has that content, Google sees that and they give a penalty. They’ll bump you don’t because it’s not original. Plus forget about that, and most of our colleagues don’t want to do it, but you have to write your own content.

The other reason is there’s a disconnect: a lot of these websites will say, if a patient has an edentulous space then the dentist can prepare the abutments for a fixed partial denture. Huh? You know you spend 10 minutes in the chair explaining what a bridge is, go home on my website Mr. Smith and take a look and see, the website says denture and now you have a disconnect because you haven’t controlled the message. I don’t do perio surgery, the periodontist does, and we don’t call it perio surgery. We call it gum work. I control the message.

I think online we have to control the message and we forget that custom content written by somebody else isn’t your tone and it’s not controlling your message. But Google said listen, we want custom content, we want it in logical order, we want headings and we want title tags, which is pretty much what they said and that’s what you have to do to compete.

I equate that to a soccer team. You bring your kids to soccer practice, there’s 10 kids or 11 kids or whatever it is, nobody has cleats and no one has a ball. Okay so what can the coach do? Not much. The coach can play with one kid who’s got Crocs on, going to hurt his toe doing corners, and that’s okay. So what some dentists will do, and I’ve seen it with my clients, is where we revamp the website and all of a sudden they’re through the roof. Why?

Well the reason is because nobody came to practice with a soccer ball and with cleats and shin guards. Then one parent goes to the car and brings a ball and shin guards, that’s the only kid with equipment, that kid’s a star. So for many offices, if you’re in the middle of somewhere very rural and there’s two or three competitors, and all of you have kind of basic, not up to standard websites, then all of a sudden you build a website up to standards, you come with your equipment, you don’t need SEO!

You’re going to say oh my gosh, that’s crazy, well it’s not crazy because if you’re the only guy in town who’s got a veneer page up to Google standards, in theory, you should rank. The problem comes in is when you are in somewhere like New York city or Manhattan, where you come to practice and not only are there 11 kids prepared, there’s 40 other kids waiting for someone else to fall down. In order for you to even participate, to compete, with those 40 kids, you’ve got to have your soccer ball and your cleats. You’ve got to come prepared.

So that’s why whenever we build a website, I don’t care where you rank now or what you’re doing now, if you’re not up to standards we have to get you to standards first. An impression on number 8 is going to look like an impression on 17. I’m not going to say we don’t need a lingual margin, the lab still has to see something, even though no-ones going to see it but me and the lab, we have to close the margin so before we do anything, you’ve got to have those in place.

Howard Farran:  So you’ve got over 1000 posts on Dentaltown, you’ve written a book on this, you have a course, dental web development and what you need to know now. What do you think the average- my view of the market is the average dentist probably has a website that five years ago they were at a convention, paid someone some money, they built a website and they haven’t even looked at it in five years. What would you say for the 150 000 dentists in America, what do you think they’re average internet website presence is, like what per cent of them would have a website and how many of them would need you, and what would the typical dentists be like coming to you and what would you actually do for them?

David Wank:  Well the answer is I don’t know, because a lot of it is demographic based. One of the cool things about the web is we have analytics, Google Analytics which gives us data we’ve never seen before. You can actually know what devices people are coming from, what regions they’re coming from and I think it’s really all market based. I think a lot of older dentist, let’s say our 60 year old, what I’ve seen in my experience is that they, with that group, is that they’re selling their practice in 10 years and they know that if they don’t have a website, it’s going to be a bigger negative hit on the value of the practice than the upside of having the website when they sell it.

Plus I have a lot of dentists who actually don’t have websites now and are saying finally things are dropping down a little bit and everyone else has it so I have to get in the game. Maybe that’s what’s going to happen with CEREC in 20 years, maybe no-one is going to taking impressions anymore.

Howard Farran:  Do you see a big difference in the per cent of dentists who have a website in the half of America that lives in the big urban cities versus the half of America that lives in the rural countryside?

David Wank:  I don’t know to be honest, I see a mixed bag. Most of the dentists that come to me are redesigns and they’re not just for changing out veneers, you know, it’s not that they have five old veneers and we’re going to change them for seven. We’ve got veneers that are rotting underneath and that’s kind of the problem because look- people didn’t pay attention to what it had to be structurally a long time ago. I see sites that are- and again you have to differentiate between like a template, like a theme and the actual content because every patient with shade A2 is a template, in theory. The preparation underneath is what’s custom. All of your A2 veneers that go out, every veneer prep is that much different. So I’m not concerned if your website in Phoenix looks like mine in New Jersey. That doesn’t matter. When you say template- you can’t have that same exact content that I have. Even that far away, because again, it doesn’t engage the patients and you will get penalized.

A lot of what I’m getting is redesigns and that’s why for me, what I want to do is say let’s get you these basics. Let’s get you the tools you need for the foundation you need, so if right now you’re in a rural area and you show up to that game, you’re the only kids who can participate, terrific. We’ll build your website, you have a great day and you’ll do well.

When other kids start to show up, you’ll at least be in the position where you can now move ahead. Because I don’t want to start scrambling to do things and we’re two years behind. One of the mistakes that dentists make is that we don’t get that- well first of all, I’m in Short Hills, 07078, when I practice in Manhattan. But right next door is Millbourne, 07039, so a dentist in Short Hills can throw a baseball to Millbourne and Google doesn’t really get that yet.

Then I’m in 07078, that’s where my office is, but I draw patients from 07039 and Google says wait a minute, the people who are in 07039, they should get preference. So it’s very hard for me let’s say in Short Hills to rank for dentist Millbourne, because Google’s saying what business ranking for dentist Millbourne when you’re in Short Hills, and you say hey, but it’s right next door, my kid’s school is actually in Millbourne. So that’s an issue and you can’t force it. So what a dentist will say is, I want to be a dentist in- Dr. Wank is a dentist in Millbourne, sees patients in Millbourne, Short Hills, Maplewood, South Orange and because I said that, I should rank for South Orange. Not really, because you’ve got dentists in South Orange who are legitimately in South Orange who will rank better than you will. Just because you said South Orange doesn’t make you a dentist in South Orange and so that’s where this whole algorithm comes in.

Because otherwise you could say I’m an electrician and I really like my dentist in South Orange and so if you typed in dentist South Orange and Google gave you the electrician’s website, that said we do great electrical work and at the bottom it said, David Wank is my favorite dentist in South Orange, you’d never use Google again. So just because you write dentist South Orange on a webpage, doesn’t mean that’s what it’s about.

Howard Farran:  David, what do you think of some dentists who say you should have several different websites? One positioning yourself as a cosmetic dentistry, one for children, what do you think about multiple websites strategy? 

David Wank:  I think in general the answer is no, because what you have is, when it comes to SEO and doing that, there’s about 300 factors or more that go into ranking a webpage. We don’t rank websites, we rank webpages, so internally what Google looks at internally, it’s the Dewey decimal system, it’s a big database, someone does a search for veneer dentist Short Hills, so Google opens up the folder and says alright, what do I have here for veneer dentist Short Hills, I’ve got these 10 pages that match. Okay well this guy has 17 other things on that page, forget it, this one is in flash, forget it, alright now I’m down to 8 websites that talk about that. Okay well this one talks about it on the very bottom, my friend’s a veneer dentist, get rid of that. Alright now we’re down to 5 pages that’s definitely just about Dr. Wank is a veneer dentist in Short Hills that are up to these Google standards on site SEO. Now how do they tell the 5 apart?

Well then you start looking at the external SEO. Who links to you? It’s a huge thing and that’s where all these links forms came in because then what I would do is, I would say oh, the more links I have the cooler I am. It’s a popularity contest. If the captain of the football team says that guy is cool, then he’s cool. Then is that guy says that that guy’s cool, then he’s cool by extension. But it reaches a point where if the captain of the football team says that 300 people are cool, it dissolves that kind of coolness.

So I have a client, I’ll make up the state in Kansas, and it’s a new office and they had a thing on the radio or on the local TV station and they did a thing on him that linked to his website. That is a beautiful link because the radio station has that coolness so getting a link from your electrician or your lawyer is great.

Howard Farran:  What do you mean by that, that their website puts your website link on their actual website?

David Wank:  A link to you. So again, let’s just say for arguments sake you’ve got five pages in Short Hills about veneers that are up to Google standards. How do we tell those apart? Well one of the big factors is who links to you. So if one of those sites has a link- has no links, they’re out. The next link is from the attorney or electrician, they’re out. The next one is from the ADA, the Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry, the AGD, alright that’s pretty good. The other one might have a link maybe from the local news station, but Google has no way of knowing if these five pages are all about veneers, who’s the coolest? How do I tell them apart? And part of that signal of a link is, if someone’s going to bother to link to this website, it must be good.

Howard Farran:  But how will someone link to my website, like on Today’s Dental.com, a dentist would have to put my    www.todaysdental.com on their dental website?

David Wank:  Yes, but as a dentist I wouldn’t link to you because why would I do that? So the problem is as a web developer-

Howard Farran:  Who would put my Today’s Dental link on their website? Who would do that?

David Wank:  So when you get into- it’s called link building- when you get into that, see as a web developer I can go on, you know, ‘my stinking tooth hurts.net’ and write, or go up to whatever web design thing and say hey, this is a great idea, check it out on Short Hills design, and get a link or whatever it is. But you can’t, as a dentist, go on ‘ow that hurts.com’ and write sounds to me like it’s a root canal, you know, for legal and ethical reasons we can’t do that so it’s very hard to get legitimate links as dentists and obviously, I don’t want to say- Dr. Link is a very talented veneer dentist, but check out what Howard Farran wrote about veneers because he really does a good job explaining it. Well if I can’t explain a veneer then why are you going to trust me to do it on you, which is why don’t link out to the ADA for content, five years ago that was fine but I want to hear my dentist tell me a veneer is when we do blah-blah-blah.

Don’t ship me off to the ADA where there are other dentists listed by the way. Don’t ship me out to Invisalign, don’t ship me out to Powerprox because any of these companies will give you marketing materials, so don’t tell your patients, well if you need to use the bathroom, go across the street. You’ve got to be nuts! Once they’re there keep them there. So for dentists the links that you can get are the links that are free, so to speak, a link from the ADA with your profile, the AGD, the Better Business Bureau, there are ways you can look.

Moz has something called the Open Site Explorer. It’s free for a few searches, there’s a premium too, but you can type in your website and find out who links to you and as your competitor I can look too and see, Farran’s got the Better Business Bureau, that’s just $200 a year for me, or the Chamber of Commerce, whatever it is, but the point is that’s a bit of competition. If you volunteer at the dental school and they have a bio page for you, link to it. If, you know I have a client who volunteers at the church and they did some nice things for the church and the church put a link that said, Dr. Jones-

Howard Farran:  What per cent of the searches would you say are done on Google, for all practical purposes, for dentists in America?

David Wank: I don’t know for dentists specifically, I think the number, I want to say Google might sake 60 – 70% of the search market, I’m not sure. It’s up there.

Howard Farran:  So does it help your search, does it help people find you on a search? I have a company in Phoenix and they’re searching for a dentist in Phoenix, does it help if I had used a Gmail instead of an AOL.com, or have a Google Plus page, or?

David Wank:  Yes. Okay in terms of email, it’s irrelevant.

Howard Farran:  I mean using other Google products, like YouTube, Google Plus, and Gmail?

David Wank:  Yes and no. As far as I’ve read Google has not come out and said if you have Google Plus then we will rank you higher. Same thing with the authorship tag, where you write an article and they have your picture, you know, they got rid of that, they depreciated that but what happened is, the answer is I don’t know, and so since we say that listen, it can’t hurt. If Google suggests to have a Google Plus page- someone asked me the other day about the map listings. You could do a search for dentist Phoenix- Invisalign dentist Phoenix, you might come up second for map listings. Then you do veneer dentist Phoenix, and you’re on page 71 for maps. So I had a chat with a Google rep once about Google places because we were having problems with clients, because combining the places and I asked him on the side, he said you know what, it’s part of the algorithm and we don’t really know and Google as far as I know, and we’ve discussed it on Dentaltown, at least with regular web pages they said listen, do this, do this, do this- that’s kind of the framework so we have an idea. With local, they haven’t said that. We thought that for a while it was- first of all fill out your Google Plus profile, Google Maps, they change the name, Maps, Places, Google, My Business, fill that out 100%. 95% is not 100%.

If you have to put up a picture, take one of the office and out it up there. Fill that out 100%. Then what you’re going to do, make sure you claim that Google Plus page and link it to your office with the publisher tag, pretty straight forward for someone who knows what they’re doing, and then you have to look at the publisher tag, the Google Plus page, fill out the profile and that’s pretty much what you can do now, but as long as you’ve done what they’ve said. They won’t promise that that’s going to rank you higher but we think that that helps. Same thing with reviews, anecdotally, if you are doing a Google search, you’re rarely going to see- I don’t remember the last time I saw a bunch of one star reviews for any product or service in that maps listing, so is that somewhere in that maps algorithm that’s going to make the people with the most five stars go higher? It’s possible.

And also those map listings often come above the organic listings, which I find to be kind of unfair. If you’ve done the research, you’ve spent the time, you’ve got a dedicated page about veneers, and it’s a great page, you’re the only one in town and now you’ve got five other people ranking ahead of you on maps. I don’t think that’s fair, but that’s how the cookie crumbles, but we’ve talked about it on Dentaltown, not a lot of people- no one really knows what the Google Maps magic is.

At least organic search has given us guidelines.

Howard Farran:  So your website is www.shorthillsdesign.com?

David Wank: Yes sir.

Howard Farran:  Tell dentists what you offer for them. If a dentist calls you, what do you usually do for them? You said that most of your business is reworking an older website?

David Wank:  Well some of them are new, but a large percentage is, and I think what it comes down to is; I have a two prong philosophy when it comes to building websites for somebody. Number one, I want them to own everything and number two, I don’t want them to have to call me every time I take an x-ray, to be perfectly honest.

I joke, I say I’ve got a dental degree from Harvard, if you want to bring me to your office to mount your x-rays and polish your models, I’d be happy to do it. I’ll make beautiful ortho-corners and shine them, but it’s a waste of money to pay me for that. I want to use WordPress, so WordPress is a content management system.

Howard Farran:  Who owns WordPress?

David Wank: Nobody- well it’s an open source product.

Howard Farran:  And that’s for your blogs and content?

David Wank: It’s for the entire website so basically, years ago you would hire me and you’d say to your web developer, we just brought David Wank on as our new associate dentist, here’s his picture, you email it to your web guys, they use Dreamweaver, they code it up, upload it and you’re done.

Then one day someone said what it we made it so you can kind of cut the web guy out in that regard. Let the web guy build it and you can do it on your own. It’s almost kind of what CEREC is in that sense. So you still need someone to set it up and teach you and build it, but you could do it on your own so WordPress comes in where, if you want to hire me as an associate dentist, your staff can now go add page, type in- copy and paste my bio from Word, add media, drag my picture in, publish, Dr. Wank’s now an associate. Then you fire me Tuesday morning, no problem, edit, delete and we’re done.

So there’s nothing I can do with WordPress that I can’t do by code. Same thing with endo. You know, assume for a minute that rotary gives the exact same results as endo by hand. I can do a lateral a hell of a lot faster with rotary than I can by hand. Is one better than the other? No, it’s the same, but why reinvent the wheel if you can make it so that someone, if you can use Gmail, can update a webpage, why not? Why should you pay me to do that? I’m happy to take your money, I’d much rather you do that.

In terms of owning things, you as a dentist have to own everything and this you see on Dentaltown all the time. You’ve got to own your name, you know, David Wank.com or whatever it is because if I’m David Wank.com and let’s say Farran Media owns it and then you go out of business, I can’t get in touch with you, I call up Go Daddy and say hey, I’m David Wank of David Wank.com, could I have my name and they’re going to say Howard owns this. But I’m David Wank? And they’re going to say we don’t care if you’re Winston Churchill, Howard owns it so it’s Howard’s.

So own your own name. Same thing with the theme, you know, a theme for your website is like PowerPoint. They gave a lecture 12 years ago on the root shade of molars, that hasn’t changed, but PowerPoint 2000 and whatever comes out, nice new presentation, same old slides, but I want you to own that theme. The themes are 50 or 60 bucks but when someone comes to you and says hey, where did you get that theme? Oh I bought it here and here’s the license. Same thing with stock photography. All the time on Dentaltown, letters from Getty Images wanting $3000, $5000 because the web guy used an image that he or she wasn’t allowed to use, you’re the dentist, it’s your responsibility, I had no idea.

So for my clients, they own their license for the stock photography. We go through it together but you own that. Same thing with backups. I joke when I lecture- I could go home tonight and have no clients left and that’s true, because my clients own their names, they’re in control of their hosting, control of their backups and I want them to stay with me because we provide you with value in a service, just like a dental patient. I’m certainly not going to make a denture out of proprietary acrylic that only I can adjust. Could you imagine?

There are some denture patients it just doesn’t work out with, or any kind of patient and that’s okay, but you know, I don’t believe in saying here’s a proprietary system that we’re going to lock you into. It’s my philosophy so with WordPress we can build you a website that you can manage yourself. If you want to pay us to hold your hand and polish your models, we’ll do it, and if you don’t you can have your 12 year old nephew do it for you in Indiana or wherever you like and that’s the beauty of it.

You’re on your own, as much as you want to be or as little as you want to be. If you need SEO, we can bring in SEO as a service, or whatever else you want to do, but the beauty of it is anybody can service your WordPress car. You’re not going to- my Ford, I can take my Ford to my guy, I can bring it to the dealership for recalls, but for bodywork or whatever it goes to my guy. You’re not bringing the Tesla to your guy, you’re bringing it to the dealer and so WordPress gives you the ability to bring it to the guy or anyone you want, or back to the dealer and it gives you that flexibility and you can work with anybody and again, you own the backup.

So if I disappear and move to Belize, you say it was great working with David but he’s gone, well that stinks but you know what, we’ve got our stuff. In fact I force my clients to buy the backup plug-in, it’s like $70 a year, I used to make it optional. As dentists we don’t do anything that’s optional because we’re cheap. So I just require it now. The point is, they own the license, I don’t.

Howard Farran:  So David, how often do you recommend a dentist update their website by adding a blog, do you recommend that they use their iPhone for like a little video interview for a minute and upload that on their website, or photos, what helps SEO- the difference between a blog, a photo of you and a patient or a video saying hey David give me a tip for-

David Wank:  Sure. I think that people think about it like that- what can I do for Halloween to get rankings. I don’t think that’s such a great idea. What can I do for Halloween that’s awesome, and that’s the approach it needs to be. If you’re doing it because you just have to go through the motions, it’s not worth doing, it’s not going to come out well. That’s where you’ve got companies posting for you on social media. Honestly, I love my dentist, I don’t want to hear from him. I don’t care. I don’t care that my primary physician, you know- next time you lecture, ask a bunch of dentists how many people know anyone who likes any of their personal physician’s pages- hands go down. Then at the end they say Howard, how come no-one likes my Facebook page?

Are you going to like your internist, your proctologist or whatever, no! You want to get in there and go. So what people don’t get is that people hate the dentist. Yes I’m nice and I give painless injections too and I’m fabulous and they love me. No they don’t! They want to come in, they’re happy that I’m nice and I won’t hurt them too much, they give that kind of thank you smile and they leave and hopefully we treated them well and we provided them quality care.

They don’t want to come back. Heck, I’m a dentist and I don’t want to go back. So we have to get that reality in our heads. If you’re a dermatologist and you’re giving away BOTOX or whatever you’re doing, definitely, but for us, you know people are bombarded so if you’re going to say something, say something that’s valuable so maybe even four to six times, once every two months I’d say write a blog post. Most dentists won’t even do that. But write a blog post about something that’s interesting. If you’re going to do a Halloween buy-back program, or if you’re going to do in April, summer’s coming up, here are the different types of whitening. The other thing that’s very cool to do, because what Google does now is they look at kind of social indicators, so if there is some power couple getting divorced, you type in power couple divorce, whoever it happens to be, if that’s popular those searches will rank higher.

That’s a good time to write a blog post about getting divorced, time to have whitening. Take advantage of what’s going on in the news.

Howard Farran:  So we should be looking at what topics are trending on Google and Twitter?

David Wank: If you want to get that involved though. I mean the truth is it’s a lot to get involved. If you’re a sole practitioner with a small staff, you want to go home to your family after a long day, not start browsing the web to see what you can put on Twitter or whatever it is.

Howard Farran:  What about economic incentives, what about a website on coupons, discounts, $50 off this, $100 off that? 

David Wank: I think that’s a marketing question. You say to yourself well, when I ran the ad in the local paper ten years ago and I gave the coupon, did it work? That’s a demographic issue. Is a coupon going to make me look cheap? Is it going to make me look desperate or is it going to provide some kind of value? So a lot of the questions that we have for digital marketing are the same answers for print marketing. What’s the impression we’re going to give?

I once had a client say something very smart, he said don’t make the website look too expensive. I said what? He said because it’s a blue collar town, blue collar guy, make it look nice and neat but don’t make it look too fancy and expensive.

So the same thing, that’s what goes into play with that.

Howard Farran:  What other things, if we assume that moms make 90% of all the appointments, and now we have two male dentists talking, that always scares me when two male dentists are talking about dentistry when I see 90% of the appointments made by moms. What do you think mom’s looking for on a website? Besides location and hours and all that, do you have any data on what she goes over and clicks here versus there, or?

David Wank:  You know what, I haven’t looked at the gender specific data on that, but I think it’s what anyone looks at. It’s a question of trust and I say to people how many patients have ever asked you how many crowns you’ve done? None. One. In 30 years of whatever it is.

Why is that? It’s easy, it’s because by the time they’re in the chair and they’re willing to let you put a needle in their mouth, they trust you. Something happened between them leaving their house, opening up in their chair completely vulnerable, opening their mouth, letting you stick a needle in their head that made them decide that you’re trustworthy. So what did you do?

Certainly you can’t put up your bitewings on your website or in the waiting room and say look how beautiful my crowns are. So what do you do? So it’s the same traditional things. Your staff is friendly, you have a fish tank without dead fish in it that’s clean. These are- you ever go to a restaurant and you have that fish tank that’s cloudy and you’re like mmm. Well it’s the same thing, I can’t see them cook in the back. So I have to use whatever kind of social signals I have around me to make a judgment on whether my food is going to be poisoned or not.

Same thing with the dentist. So on a dental website, what you want to see is one of the social signals. Personally, I’m not on Facebook a lot, I’m not on any of these social sites because my friends know me and I’m happy that way. The world doesn’t need to know that I had a cold yesterday. But what you do is, people judge you by that unfortunately, like it or not, that this is what it is and if you don’t have a Facebook page, you must be a crappy dentist.

Now that’s the most preposterous thing in the whole world, but when people look at your website and they’re trying to gauge if they’re going to trust you to put the needle in their head, they’re going to look and see, if you have a Facebook page you must be modern, know what you’re doing so by extension you must be safe which is crazy but it is, that’s the road that people go.

They come in your office, it’s nice, there’s no blood on the ceiling, it looks nice, it looks neat, the staff is friendly, they don’t yell at them, you take their insurance and all of that put together equals trust.

Howard Farran:  So what do you think is more powerful, your Facebook page or your website page?

David Wank:  I think the website page- well the website page has got to be your hub and it’s demographic. A lot of pedo offices do a ton on Facebook because that’s how they engage but the website is the hub and everything else is an adjunct and so what I use, which I think is great is something called Hootsuite.com, I think it’s about 10 bucks a month. You use it?

Howard Farran:  I don’t but I see a lot of people on Dentaltown use it.

David Wank: The idea behind it is, for Short Hills Design, when I write a blog post, it goes on Short Hills Design.com, and this is what I tell my clients to do. Then we have to post it on Facebook, Twitter- I call this write once, use everywhere. My lawyer said I can’t copyright that and I’ve written it on Dentaltown 100 times. Write once, post everywhere. So you write this one article about- here is a great example. Here’s a blog past for everybody: are the black lines around my crowns decay? Because people aren’t always searching for- I need a new crown. They’re searching for the problem, so are black lines around my crowns decay, and you write an article. Dr. Wank blog post, Dr.Wank sees a lot of patients who ask him why there are black lines around my crowns and you say oh, don’t worry, that’s just the metal seeping into your body, you’re fine. And then you say no well, sometimes it’s decay, sometimes it’s the blah-blah-blah from the metal and the black and we can make you porcelain crowns. So the beauty of that is, you write that blog post and number one, I’m not thinking about keywords there. I’m not going to say- let me look and see what the keywords are because you’d be there all day.

You’re a dentist, what do I think logically people ask me? A lot of people ask me about the black lines around their crowns, is it decay, is it recession, that makes a lot of sense about what it is, don’t go nuts, use your brain.

Everything we do, we decide if the tooth is restorable, that’s far more complex a decision than anything we do on the web. You know, we just do it quickly because we know how to do it, that’s a much more complicated question.

So I don’t know where that’s going to get picked up. Are my Facebook fans going to like that, are my Twitter people going to look at it, the dentists who find me let’s say on Google Plus are not going to come and read my website too and vice versa. So let me do this; I don’t know who I’m going to get from where or which articles I’m going to get from where. My article about should a dentist friend a patient on Facebook might get a lot of play on Facebook and nothing on Twitter.

My article about Google Plus will get the reverse. So when I write an article for Short Hills Design it goes on David Wank’s Facebook page, Short Hills Design’s Facebook page, David Wank’s Google Plus page, Short Hills Design’s Google Plus page, our Twitter feed, it goes on my study club’s Facebook thing, with permission and it goes to a couple of other places, auto-magically, and my staff does it for me.

All you do is you type in a thing, you say go here, here and here, and it sends it. So I don’t really care whether it’s Facebook or whatever it is, everybody gets it, because I don’t know, maybe the article about these all ceramic crowns, maybe some person who follows you on Twitter might pick that up. Who knows? So there’s no way to really know that.

Then of course looking at your data over time if you happen to see, well it looks like the people that are coming from Facebook spend a hell of a lot more time than the people coming from Twitter and buy a lot more services from us, then maybe you’d want to focus more on Facebook.

Howard Farran:  So if a dentist had a website and he had Facebook, what would be the next social media site? If they were to say I’m going to go to another one, what would be the next choice?

David Wank:  I would say- we tell our clients to by default have Facebook, Google Plus for what you said before, there’s been stuff on Dentaltown also whether Google Plus is or isn’t, but you know what it’s Google, so don’t upset them, you’re not going to get a penalty for not having it, but have it because it’s there and it’s free. Facebook, Google Plus and Twitter and again, when you’re using Hootsuite, you’re cross posting to all three of those.

Howard Farran:  You think those are different audiences?

David Wank:  Absolutely.

Howard Farran:  They are different- can you define briefly what a different audience, I mean your general average Facebook person versus a Twitter folk or Google Plus.

David Wank:  You know what, it’s very hard to make that. I think I would guess and from experience that Facebook is much more streamlined with more normal people. I don’t think as many people outside of businesses know a lot about Google Plus. I think Google Plus is business heavy because Google has said when they decided to do Google maps, they said we need to take over the Yellow Pages too, we’re making Google Maps so we’re going to set up this page for you, Acme Window Company, and all you have to do is come and claim it and then we can make you popular by showing that. You have to be nuts not to sign up.

So by capturing this business, Google Plus is very business heavy and there are people who think that it’s going to be the next thing and those people are involved too but I think that most people when I lecture, most people don’t know about it like they know Facebook. I don’t think people want to engage in two social networks.

How many people have four cars? There’s only so much time you can spend. So Twitter also, I think Twitter has really shifted to quick, kind of news briefs but obviously Twitter is short and links to things but it would take way too much time to guess your demographic which is why for me, I haven’t looked at my Twitter page for Short Hills Design probably since I started it, but it doesn’t matter because they’re getting the same content that everybody else is getting and I’m hoping that- by spreading ourselves not thin enough, but wide enough as a big enough net, that we’ll catch some people that want to see what we have to say in the format they want it.

That’s kind of the next step. To answer what you said before, adding a picture or a video for SEO purposes kind of really doesn’t matter in the sense that, you know, if you have a really cool video about Atridox that you know nobody is searching for, are you all of a sudden now not going to post it because it’s not SEO for your site?

If you rank well for mini implants, well you know what I had this really cool Christmas jingle about mini implants but you know what, we already rank well for mini implants so I’m not going to bother. I think that’s short circuiting your marketing. If you’ve got a great idea about something or a mini implant jingle, whether you do a million a year on that or two dollars a year, post it.

Once you start thinking I’m not going to do this because it might not rank, then you’re wasting time. For us, and we do SEO, we’re not SEO-ing the whole thing. We’re SEO-ing specific subjects that the dentist wants to focus on.

You can rank well for mini implants, but if you’re only doing one mini implant case a year, who cares. If you said to me David, we’re doing Invisalign and implants and whatever, and crowns in a day, so yeah if that’s what your SEO focus is, then sure, if you’re going to do some fun stuff in the office then make a jingle, but just don’t make random things up for the office hoping that that’s going to make you rank.

Howard Farran:  What do you think people are searching for because I often wonder- I don’t think people are searching for same day crowns, I mean I don’t think. I have a CEREC that could do that but I don’t- I can’t think of anyone who’s said I came to your office because you do crowns in about an hour. What do you think it is that they’re searching for?

David Wank:  I think you can’t know that so I think what you have to do is you have to spread it around, you know, dentist in Phoenix is a different keyword than Phoenix dentist. Now you and I would say that doesn’t make any sense, it’s the same thing, but it’s not the same thing. So you might find that Invisalign dentist Phoenix, best Invisalign dentist Phoenix or Phoenix Invisalign dentistry are three different search terms and I just want to know which one people are using. Now if you find a 50:1 ratio, then I want to focus on the one that people are using and the answer is I have no idea, and Google used to tell you that. At least used to tell you in analytics what people were looking for to get to your site. They’ll only tell you that now with AdWords, which is annoying.

So what I tell my clients is-

Howard Farran:  So let’s talk about that. So you’re talking about doing all these things right to get organically searched up top, but if you can’t get it organically, you can always pay for it with Google AdWords. Talk about that.

David Wank:  Yes and no. It’s only recently that I’ve kind if changed my tune on AdWords a little bit. A lot of people want to get rich quick with AdWords and AdWords is like roulette because you’ll spend $500, then you’ll spend $500 more and then more hoping for something different. What people aren’t trying in- they’re not tying in data with AdWords. So let’s take for example the concept of the bounce rate. So let’s say you have a tooth whitening Phoenix page that you get 100 visits a month to and your bounce rate is 90%. That means 9 out of 10 people get to that page and leave. They open the door and they leave.

So a lot of dentists aren’t looking at that. They’re saying well, I spent $500. We get 10 visits to the whitening page. I’m going to sit and wait for whitening. If you look at the data you’re going to see it’s a 90% bounce rate. You paid for 10 people to come, 9 of them left. So before you pay another 10 people to come, let’s figure out what they didn’t like about it. It’s the restaurant with the soup.

If 50 people came to try the soup and nobody made it to the steak, to the next course, don’t pay 50 people off the street to try the soup. They’re going to hate it. So let’s stop that AdWords campaign, because most of our colleagues would say double the spend- then you’re going to get 18 out of 20 leaving.

Let’s look at that page, that’s conversion optimization, step three, we’re getting traffic. Let’s look at that page and see why people hate it. We get that bounce rate down to 40%, 6 out of 10 people stay, okay now we’re drive more traffic there and that’s a huge mistake made with AdWords. Because you can keep pumping money in and it is, it’s like the Lotto- if I buy one more or one more, I’ll get that patient. Lotto’s hit or miss, the goal with AdWords is say listen, if I can find a handful of ads that do well, that convert well, that get to a webpage on my site because an implant ad should have an implant page, a CEREC ad should have a CEREC page if you’re doing that, veneer page to veneer page, veneer ad to veneer page, if you have an ad that has a high click-through rate and a webpage that converts well, that’s going to be a money machine.

That’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking- what’s the combination here and here that bring the patients in. A lot of people aren’t thinking that. They’ll do AdWords that drive you to the homepage. The example I give is, I give Godiva as a gift a lot of the time and they’re always in my inbox and it’s great, they’re in the back of my head and they did the thing the other day, hey David, check out our super fattening chocolate special. Fine, you click the thing and it doesn’t take you to the homepage, it takes you to the super fattening chocolate special page, because why would they say they’ve got my interest about the fattening chocolate and now you’re going to send me to the homepage and I have to look around? No!

If I know you’re interested in veneers, send me to the veneer page. Don’t send me to the homepage then make me look for veneers. If I’ve told you, I volunteered, hey, I like super chocolate thing. Send me the super chocolate thing.

So AdWords is like anything else. The website is the middle, then there’s Facebook, there’s AdWords, there’s being a pirate outside, there’s sponsoring the little league team, there’s going to the kid’s school, anything you can do to drive traffic to your website and that’s that phase two.

With AdWords you really have to do it with someone who knows what they’re doing, not because dentists are stupid. People say dentists are too dumb, we’re very smart. We’re very smart people, the problem is it just takes time. Dentists don’t do AdWords for the same reason that AdWords people don’t do root canals. They could, go to school for four years and go to endo, do plenty of root canals. So you know, I just don’t like dabbling with it because it’s just complicated and if you don’t have the time to dedicate to it, I don’t do it. I have someone who works with me who does it because he’s more skilled at it than I am.

I haven’t done a root canal in ten years. I work with two endodontists and they’re wonderful. If you put a gun to my head and you’re in pain, I could do it for you in about ten hours, but I’d finish it for you. So sure I could do it but it’s not what I do well, so let someone who does it do it well.

Howard Farran:  So how does this dentist start a relationship with you? Does he email you the name of his website? Does he call you? How does it usually work?

David Wank:  Well there’s a contact form on the website and they can contact us that way, they can give us a call, but I provide a unique approach again because I’m a colleague and a vendor so I can talk in dentist.

My business model, it’s a high end office. We’re not build around getting every person in the whole world a website. We’re built around a certain person when I say you’ve got to drink my Kool-Aid, same thing in a dental office.

If you want to become a patient of mine, a dental patient, I do it a certain way. I take my time, this is my fee and you’re going to have to drink my Kool-Aid. If you don’t like my Kool-Aid there’s a million other people who will do it for you. But I do it in a certain way because this is how I think it should work. I think we should have a WordPress based website for these reasons and this and this and this and if that’s not what you want that’s fine, but that’s my approach, it’s not for everybody and that’s okay, I respect that.

You’ve got to buy into the philosophy that this is the way to do it, you know, otherwise I think it’s going to fail. A dentist wanted me to do a 12 page site for her, I said you’re going to fail, if you don’t have a dedicated page for each service, you will fail because if I have a page that says Dr. Wank does veneers, root canals, crowns and dentures, and you have a page just about dentures, and someone does a search for dentures, what’s the more relevant page? The page where denture is one of seven things or just yours where it’s about dentures?

Howard Farran:  Tell everybody about your new course on Dentaltown.

David Wank:  Oh it’s a great course, if I say so myself. It’s about an hour and a half long and we go through the process. We talk about the web design overview, where things fit in space again, kind of like denture. What does it have to do with the final product, we’re actually going to figure that out. Then we talk about platforms you can use to build it, but before you build it you have to understand the infrastructure.

Howard Farran:  This is the WordPress?

David Wank:  Yeah. What’s good about WordPress, you buy proprietary or not proprietary, what should you know? I used to say if you liked your website you can keep it and I can’t say that anymore. At least have your eyes open. This is not a course how to build your website. Go to a million other things for that. This is- you’re buying a diamond. You have to know the color and the clarity and this and that. You don’t have to know what kind of axe they use to get it out of the mine or what box they ship it in. If you want to know that, God bless you, but you don’t need to know that. You need to know if you’re going to get proprietary or not proprietary- what am I getting into?

And how to really talk to the vendors. I don’t want the vendor- and I’m a vendor- coming to you with a show and saying you sir need a website because you’re wearing green. Well okay, and then you can say to them okay, I need SEO, how many other clients do you have in 07078 and they say I’ve got to talk to the manager.

You should be able to have an understanding to ask, when they try to sell you CEREC or any kind of thing like that, you say I want to see your crown, I want to test the margins because you know that you can evaluate the margins that’s what you can have with the vendor. If the margins are wide open on the demo, they can’t sell you a system.

So that’s the idea. We’re talking about current design trends, what things are going and why and then we go into the details. These are just things you should know before you buy. It doesn’t teach you how to do it, because again it’s not why you’re spending your time, but you want to know when they say to you, you know Howard, we’ll own the name for you, don’t worry about it. We’ll hold onto that and you say no, red flag!

I don’t remember where but somewhere they told me not to do that.

Howard Farran:  David how much does something like this cost for you to help them?

David Wank:  What we usually do is, from start to finish, a website is about $4400. We do give a 10% Dentaltown discount because we get a lot of business from Dentaltown, Dentaltown has been kind to me to help me grow my career and I give back to the Townies who are on there. Also because I don’t just post in the web section. Some crazy denture thing’s happened to me and I definitely post and ask my colleagues for help too on that, so it’s just a way of me saying thank you too.

Sometimes discounts are the best way. I lost my train of thought there.

Howard Farran:  You said $4400.

David Wank: Yeah minus 10%, then there’s about $200 more in extra fees and that’s just for you to own things. There’s no markup on that. You own your name if you don’t have it already.

Howard Farran:  Do you host it for them? 

David Wank:  Yes and no. If you want to host with me, we host for $75 a month which is a lot but that’s because we’ll go in once a month and check it out for you. If you want to host with HostGator or any other hosting company or your brother for $3 a month or $0 a month, we have no problem with that either.

Howard Farran:  Is GoDaddy the big bonanza?

David Wank:  Yes and no.

Howard Farran:  The reason I ask about GoDaddy is I’m in Phoenix and it’s in my back yard, I mean I’ve got 100 patients that work there, seriously. It’s huge out here.

David Wank:  First of all, their customer service is terrific. I’ve always liked their customer service and I’ve purchased domains from them for about a million years. I happen to not like their hosting from a technical level, I don’t like how they implement WordPress. So all of my domains are registered at GoDaddy, but I don’t host anything there and I do try and move my clients. The other company I like to use is HostGator. Again, any company, these are all shared hosting companies which means you’ve got a web server and they’re sharing like- you know, it’s like an ortho office. You’ve got a lot of people in there at once and for most dental websites, you can share the space on the server. You can carpool so to speak. If you’re Amazon.com, you need your own car but if you’re a dental website that isn’t doing that kind if million transactions a second, you can do that.

Some of these shared hosts are stinky, they go through phases but HostGator is pretty reliable. What I like about them for my clients, I don’t host email for example, because if your website goes down, I have people who can take care of that but if your email goes down and I’m prepping a crown and I’m not available that’s not fair to you and I’m not going to sell you a service that I can’t support. Anyone that hosts with me uses Google Apps or Microsoft which is awesome, I love Google Apps.

But HostGator, they’re $2-3 a month, their hosting is very good. When you first sign up they will give you a hard sale, but then you ignore that and then pass that, they’re pretty darn reliable. They have 24/7 support, I do have an affiliate relationship with them, I make a couple of bucks when someone signs up but I tell people you can go around my affiliate link. Honestly, at this level of the game it’s not about the money.

I used to work for a guy who charged for Vitrebond, I mean come on. I did an extraction for $300 and then he charges sterilization fee for the follow up. I’m like you know what- so as far as I’m concerned, you’re paying us that much money for a website, if you want to host with your brother, that’s fine. If you have a better deal on hosting and you know- we’ll do it for you but if you want to do it yourself, why should I take the tools out of your hands? If you want to go in the back and wax up on your RPD’s I’m sure your lab won’t mind. Do it and that’s my approach. Whatever you want to pay us to do for you, we’re happy to do for you. Whatever you want to do on your own, do it on your own and leave me alone.

I mean again, in the nicest way possible.

Howard Farran:  Explain to people, our viewers, who might not be Townies how do they find out of 1000 posts on Dentaltown, how do they find your post on Dentaltown?

David Wank:  I think you just jump online and you’ll find some.

Howard Farran:  What is your forum?

David Wank:  My handle is Short Hills, usually I’m living in the marketing forum.

Howard Farran:  The marketing forum.

David Wank:  The marketing forum. There’s web design, there’s I think there’s marketing, there’s dental websites and there’s a social media forum there too and then there’s a third one- it escapes me now.

Howard Farran:  Are you in all those?

David Wank:  I’m in all of them.

Howard Farran:  All of those.

David Wank:  There’s so much on there that all of us, there’s a bunch of us on there, a bunch of core people who are really good people, I’ve become friends with them over they years and some of us are competitors but it’s nice because I have a different philosophy to some of the other vendors there and it’s nice that we can share our philosophies, you know, give the people what they want and let the people decide.

Along those lines, when you build the website, do me a favor, keep it standard. Don’t do home, about, accoutrements. If you’re building a photography website you can put things wherever you want but keep the supermarket analogy. If you go in and the marshmallows are next to the milk, if the supermarket is in alphabetical order the next time you go, you’ll figure it out but you’ll get a headache because you’re uncomfortable.

Howard Farran:  Well that was the fastest hour podcast I’ve ever done, but I just want to tell the viewer that, you know, I’m a big fan of you and I’m a big fan of your posts but what I want to tell the viewers is when you go on those threads you think you have a question, but when you start reading those threads, I mean those other dentists are asking you questions and you’re answering them with things I’ve never even thought about so if you think you have a question, trust me on Dentaltown it’s already been asked, you’ve already answered it and you’ve answered 10 more questions that my listeners have never thought about because the details of this just goes on for infinity.

David Wank:  And the search feature is there. We tell people too, go to search and look. It’s been answered 10 times, we’ll do it again but it’s there for you, so it’s great.

Howard Farran:  Well David Wank thank you so much for all you do for dentistry, all you do for Dentaltown and for being a true pioneer in the most explosive part of dentistry and commerce and business which is the internet and all things internet.

David Wank:  Well thank you so much for having me and for your time, I really appreciate it.

Howard Farran:  And watch his new course and I’ll see you on the boards.

David Wank: Thank you so much, I’ll see you then.

Howard Farran:  Alright buddy, bye-bye.

David Wank:  Bye-bye man, thank you.