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Howard Farran:
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It is just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Joy Gendusa, all the way from Clearwater, Florida, where the famous Dr. Bill Strup lives. And he's your dentist, right?
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Joy Gendusa:
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He is.
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Howard Farran:
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That is amazing. And I love the name Joy, because that is one of my top 10 favorite songs from the 70s.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, you're-
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Howard Farran:
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My Apollo 1000 ... that was an amazing song. Joy Gendusa is an entrepreneur, business owner, author, established speaker and philanthropist. She is the founder and CEO of PostcardMania, a marketing company specializing in lead generation for small to large size business. PostcardMania has been named to the Inc. 500 and the Inc. 5000 list and has worked with 73,792 small business owners, including over 5,000 dentists. Joy has been featured in Dental Economics every month since 2015, as well as Business Insider, Entrepreneur Magazine, Inc. Magazine and more as a marketing educator and expert. With only a phone, a computer and postcards, Joy grew PostcardMania from a startup into an industry leader. Today, Postcard generates more than $49 million in annual revenue, employs more than 210 people in Tampa Bay, Florida area. That is just an amazing story, and you didn't even graduate from high school.
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Joy Gendusa:
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No, I was kind of a rebel.
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Howard Farran:
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You were a rebel with a cause or a rebel without a cause?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh definitely no cause.
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Howard Farran:
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No cause. You just wanted to be a rebel?
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Joy Gendusa:
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It was just, I was 17 and thought I knew everything already.
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Howard Farran:
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I know. At 17, all four of my boys thought I was the dumbest person in the world and by 21, they thought I was smart.
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Joy Gendusa:
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There you go.
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Howard Farran:
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So I must have really improved myself in a four-year period. I went from being the dumbest man on earth to actually being pretty frigging smart. So, I want to start off with just the 4,000 pound gorilla in the room. All the people, 50 and over, they say direct mail is a cash cow. Postcard, you mail ... and even if you only got a 1% return, every time you want a paycheck, you just mail 100 people. But it seems like the millennials come out and they're all natural, eat granola, they don't like to check the stuff in their mailbox, they throw it all away, they think you cut down a tree. So, since they grew up on Facebook and Snapchat and Instagram, they all think direct mail is dead. But anybody who knows what the hell they're doing, clearly says direct mail is anything but dead. If it was dead, you wouldn't be getting any junk mail in your mailbox.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Exactly, and we do have a harder time reaching the millennials or the younger entrepreneurs, but we're growing year over year and not everybody is ... I'm the youngest of the baby boomers, so not all of our clients are my age or older. There are definitely lots in their 30s and 40s. They eventually realize that it works.
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Howard Farran:
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And the other thing is, let's say you did a whole advertising campaign on Snapchat. What kind of dentistry does a 19-year-old need? But if you direct mailed every grandma that lives within 10 miles of your office, how many of them have a denture, a partial, gum disease, need implants? It seems like ... well, walk us through your story. How did you go from dropping out of high school with a rebel without a cause, to starting PostcardMania? And you know, we have so much in common. Dental Town I started in '98, but my first ... I graduated dental school in '87 and I started lecturing in '90. You know what my lecture was called in 1990 all the way to 1998? Dental Mania.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, you're kidding?
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Howard Farran:
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I always said I was the original Dental Maniac.
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Joy Gendusa:
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I love it. I love it.
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Howard Farran:
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And here you are in PostcardMania. So tell us about your journey. Were you born and raised in Florida?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, heck no. No, I'm from Oceanside, Long Island. Where are you at?
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Howard Farran:
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So you're a New Yorker?
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Joy Gendusa:
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I'm a New Yorker, but I've been here for more than half my life now. I moved to Clearwater when I was 24 and really, I was ... honestly, I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. I went to the High School of Art and Design, so I'm a graphic designer by ... that's what I taught myself how to do when computers came out when my younger son was born.
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Howard Farran:
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What year was that?
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Joy Gendusa:
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My younger son is 24, so what year was that? 1993.
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Howard Farran:
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So that was when you got your first computer?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, it was a 400 megabyte hard drive. My dad bought it for me.
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Howard Farran:
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Do you remember the original argument of why ... so there were mainframes and big companies and government and then they were going to come out with a microcomputer and Microsoft was going to write the software for the microcomputer and all the smart people on Wall Street said it wouldn't work and do you know why they said it wouldn't work?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Why?
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Howard Farran:
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Because you had to type on it and no men typed, only a few girls who went to typing class and all the smartest people said, "No one's ever going to learn typing for your little microcomputer." Remember that?
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Joy Gendusa:
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I don't-
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Howard Farran:
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Did you take high school typing?
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Joy Gendusa:
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No, I took a typing class after I got out of high school, and I actually became a word processor on Wall Street, like at a temp agency. And I typed 26 words per minute with 13 mistakes, and they were like, "You look the part, so we can place you."
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Howard Farran:
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But back in that time, how rare was it to be able to type?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, I don't know, not too many people typed.
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Howard Farran:
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Yeah, no one typed. Especially men, no men typed.
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Joy Gendusa:
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But I'm fast now, are you a fast typist now?
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Howard Farran:
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I'm a fast hunt and pecker. Well, now you're on your iPhone, so now you just type with your thumbs.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Sort of. If I'm on my phone, I talk into it. I don't want to type that small.
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Howard Farran:
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So-
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Joy Gendusa:
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You don't use the microphone on your iPhone?
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Howard Farran:
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You know, I don't. Siri-
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, once you start, you will never go back. Once you start, you will never use your fingers and thumbs again. It's amazing.
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Howard Farran:
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And I just read about the new search feature where you'll turn on your camera, so you'll just shine your camera at the store and it will pull up the website.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, wow. Cool.
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Howard Farran:
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Or you can be at a mall and just stick your camera up and then there's the website.
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Joy Gendusa:
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I love it.
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Howard Farran:
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Yeah, so then on your journey. So you were in New York. Did you start PostcardMania in Florida?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
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And how did that happen? You were a graphic artist, so you decided you'd design postcards?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Well, sort of. I was a graphic designer and I had a bunch of random clients and then I got this one really big client that I started brokering printing for. I could see that they were ... they were like 80% of my business and I could see that they were going south, and I thought, "I've got to come up with something where I'm not doing every single job in the company." I had about 10 staff at that point. And I received an advertisement in the mail from a postcard company that was only selling to the trade. And I ordered some postcards from them and I had a terrible experience. They wanted to ... they basically ... the cards weren't really good quality. They were $425 for 5,000. This was in 1998 and they basically put their 800 number on my art that I sent them, on the design I sent them. I sent it to them on a CD, overnight. They sent me back a proof, overnight Fed Ex, you couldn't email that stuff. And when I called them up and told them to take the 800 number off, they wanted to charge me $50. I asked to speak to the supervisor. The supervisor again made me feel like I was a dumb person who didn't read the fine print, but took it off and told me next time I would have to pay.
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I hung up the phone, I said to my four or five staff who could hear me, "We're starting a postcard company and we're going to call it PostcardMania." Basically, that's how I got the idea, just from a bad customer experience. I haven't taken any money from anyone, I grew the entire thing organically. So it was just me and a few people in the beginning and yeah, we did it all with marketing.
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Howard Farran:
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That is amazing and I love your ... I first came across you when you and Tom Giacobbi did an article in Dental Town.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, that was a while ago.
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Howard Farran:
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And so, what's got you passionate now? Are you basically ... everybody thinks they're going to graduate from dental school, $350,000 in debt and build their dental business on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, that's not going to happen. We both know that.
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Howard Farran:
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I know. So, what do these young kids need to know? Well, first of all, you always have to know your biases. That's why you've got to stay humble. Because just because you're born into a belief system, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And just because you grow up on Instagram and Facebook, doesn't mean that that's what is the best business decision.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, now we use Facebook and Instagram for ourselves because you kind of have to be out there, but it's not where we get our leads and our business. And after working with so many dentists, it's like we have it down to a science. We know how to get new patients into a practice. We know what works and what doesn't work. Sometimes the dentists are a little bit bossy and they're like, "No, I don't want to do that offer." Or "I don't want to have my card look like that." And we're like, "Listen, we know that if the card has mostly blues, if you have two to three offers, we know exactly what needs to go on the card to get the phone to ring."
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So, it's really what makes me passionate is educating. That's why I'm so excited to do this with you because we know how to do it. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. With 5,000 dental clients, we know exactly how to get new patients.
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Howard Farran:
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Other people have said on this show that blue is a color that exudes trust. Whereas yellow and red are McDonald's colors or like fast and in a hurry. You like blues.
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Joy Gendusa:
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We just find ... you know, I could care less about the color. What we do is we track the results of every campaign that we do, so I can tell you that the campaigns that do the best are mostly designed in blue.
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Howard Farran:
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Have you told the Tampa Bay Buccaneers this? That red, orange, pewter thing is ...
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Joy Gendusa:
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Well, thank God they're not dentists and they're not trying to work on anybody's teeth.
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Howard Farran:
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Do you think the Buccaneers were doing mushrooms when the decided on that color scheme?
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Joy Gendusa:
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I don't know.
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Howard Farran:
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So, first of all, let's back up. Who is the target market? We've always heard, for 30 years, that women make the majority of all the dental offices. But do you think that was a grandma and grandpa baby boomer thing? Do you think it's true in millennials? When you're writing a postcard, let's just start off there, male female, who are you aiming that at? A mom or a dad, a boy or a girl?
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Joy Gendusa:
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We're not ... well, definitely the parents. We're not aiming it at a kid. And, I would say that we're mostly probably aiming it at the mom, but we don't design the card specifically for the mom. It's really for anybody. I mean, aren't there like 57 genders now, or some ridiculous number? We're just designing the card for the recipient. For anybody that needs to have their teeth fixed.
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Howard Farran:
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We just podcast interviewed the first transsexual dentist that I'm aware of and she, Annie, told me that all we need to do is go male, female, gender non-specific. Gender non-inclusive. But I have heard studies from the medical world, that over 90% of the appointments are made by women. Some studies I've seen said 92% are women, but you don't think that really matters?
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Joy Gendusa:
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It's mainly ... it really depends on who you're targeting. Like different practices want to target different individuals. If the practice is targeting people who are elderly, not elderly, but retired people, then we're going to put people on the card that are younger than that age, because everybody sees themselves looking younger than they really are. So we're not going to put a couple of gray-haired people on it, we're just going to have late-40s looking people with great smiles as the people. Like, it depends on who you're targeting. If you're targeting families, we'll throw kids on the card and families on the card. If you're targeting millennials, we put millennials on the card. And the post office has some good stats actually on mail working on millennials, on them actually responding to direct mail.
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Howard Farran:
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And what do they say?
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Joy Gendusa:
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They say ... Gosh, I wish I had that number in front of me. I have it in a Power Point somewhere, but I don't know it off the top of my head. It's something like 78% of millennials have responded to an ad or have purchased something due to a direct mail piece or something like that.
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Howard Farran:
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Yeah, my homies right now listening to me, they're all commuting to work. That's why it's an hour long program, they have an hour commute. I always retweet my guest on my Twitter @HowardFarran. You're @postcardmania. I just retweeted your last tweet and it said, "Dentists, want to see how this NC practice generated 176 calls and 50 new patients?" What I found interesting about that is that is exactly the industry, well the data we find. It takes 176 opportunity calls to convert into 50 people, butts in the chair.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Interesting.
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Howard Farran:
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And if you train that receptionist, a good receptionist, someone who went to like the Scheduling Institute or someone you just took to sales conventions, that 176 calls could have easily been 100 new patients. And that's why I feel sorry for people like you who advertise with dentistry, because when you're doing postcards for a real business, they take those leads and they them seriously and they try to convert them and when you call they answer by the third ring and if you want to talk for three minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, it don't matter. They'll sit there till they close the call. You call a dental office, half the calls go to voice mail and the other half, they say it's a question, but it's not. They're like, "Can you please hold?" Boom. It's like I didn't even have the chance to say, "Hell no," and I'm already on hold listening to music and some offices are actually four new patient opportunities convert one. So if any of your clients ever say, "Well, I did PostcardMania and it didn't work," what you should do, is you should call them, call the office ten times-
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, we do it. We do it.
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Howard Farran:
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... and record the phone calls then send it to the dentist.
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Joy Gendusa:
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We do it and we also ... one of the things we do in our direct mail pieces is we offer these three add-ons, one of them being a call tracking number, so we can see exactly how many calls went to the practice from that card, and we can even listen to those calls to see what happened. Did they ... and that's really valuable for the dentist, because if they say, "Hey, we didn't get any new patients out of this," we could say, "Listen, log in and listen to these calls and see what your front desk is actually doing. You're spending a ton of money to get new patients and they're losing them for you."
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Howard Farran:
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So what call tracking software do you use for the call tracking number? Do you do that in-house or do you use an outside service?
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Joy Gendusa:
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We do everything in-house. We actually have a product called Direct Mail 2.0 and it adds a call tracking number, a mail tracking code, so that they can actually log in and see when the predicted delivery date is for that mail piece and when the actual delivery date is. And we also do Google Remarketing. But we can't do Remarketing for dental because of HIPAA, so we have what we call the New Patient Edition and what we do there is we do geotargeting around the practice, also where the cards hit, so that everyone who gets a postcard and everyone else is going to start seeing ads that look like that postcard all over the Google network.
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Howard Farran:
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Nice. My God, that is a ... you're extremely sophisticated. That's amazing and you're up to 49 million and 200 employees?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, 210 employees. We'll crack 50 million this year. That was last year's number. We'll probably do about 52 this year, I'm guessing, based on-
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Howard Farran:
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So where did you get that entrepreneurial genes for, was your mom and dad an entrepreneur?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Daddy. Big old daddy. My big old daddy, Bernie Liebowitz.
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Howard Farran:
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What did he do?
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Joy Gendusa:
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My dad, he's 87 years old now and he was retired when he was 56. He had a transportation brokerage and it was sort of a very gray area business, there was no regulation when he did it. Kind of made it up. So he would, if you were a manufacturer but you're too small to have your own fleet of trucks, he would put the manufacturers together with the trucking companies and the trucking companies would pay him a commission and he would get the business from the manufacturers. So he did that for my whole childhood. Dad left at 6:00 in the morning and got home for dinner at 6:00 at night.
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Howard Farran:
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Well, I'll tell you, if the only thing your dad ever teaches you is a work ethic and to take a risk and bet on yourself instead of being an employee for someone else, that's one hell of a dad.
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Joy Gendusa:
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He's an awesome dad, but he calls every single day to find out where our numbers are at. He's pretty adorable.
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Howard Farran:
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Aww, that is so amazing. That is so damn cool.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
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That is very cool. So, what's the industry expected return? Is it still 1% return is considered an A, or is that too high?
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Joy Gendusa:
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We don't even ... you know, we tell people, "Listen, there's so many variables that will determine what your response rate's going to be." I can tell you that it's one to one and a half percent as like an average, but averages are kind of BS if you ask me. It depends on if they're in a city, how many dentists are in the same area that they are, how many of them are marketing, how many of them are marketing consistently, are they in an urban area, how many households are there? I mean, there's so many variables to understand what your specific response is going to be, and we can definitely share all that knowledge with the dentist so that they can understand what they're going to get.
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Howard Farran:
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You know, do you like the movie Shark Tank?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Eh, I've see a couple of them.
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Howard Farran:
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So why don't you like it?
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Joy Gendusa:
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I guess it frustrates me a little bit. I feel like I don't like the attitude of the big entrepreneurs, the way they are.
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Howard Farran:
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The sharks.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, the sharks. I'm a very gentle businessperson. You know, I'm not one of these ... I want everybody to win and I want everybody to be happy and I want the price to be great for the buyer and that we make a fair profit. You know, I'm just like one of those people.
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Howard Farran:
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The thing I hate the most is when they bully, like, "You have to answer me now. You can't listen to any other offers."
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, ugh. Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
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It's like, that's bullying.
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Joy Gendusa:
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I know. I don't-
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Howard Farran:
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That's just classic bullying. But what I do like about them is, regardless of their personalities or lack of personalities, I like the fact that they seem to consistently ask the same 10, 20 questions and dentists consistently could never answer any of those questions. Like, one of the first questions they'd ask if you're selling something online is, "Well, what is your new patient acquisition cost?" And so, if you ask a dentist, "OK, well, when you get 20 new patients a month, what is your patient acquisition cost?" They couldn't tell you the acquisition cost from direct mail or word of mouth referral or a billboard or anything. And then you say, "Well, when you acquire that patient, what does your average new patient spend?" "No idea."
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, I feel like a lot of our dentists can answer that. We get a lot of different answers, but we do get them to answer that. Lifetime value.
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Howard Farran:
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Okay, lifetime value, so they just all say 6,500 because they-
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Joy Gendusa:
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No, we get anywhere from $2,500 to $5,000. Different answers in between there.
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Howard Farran:
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So they tell you $2,500 to $5,000?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Mm-hmm (affirmative).
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Howard Farran:
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Okay, so they read something 10 years ago and it's about for the United States of America, it's $6,500 and the dentist will recoup it on average over 60 months, five years, whereas an orthodontist, same $6,500 but they'll recoup it over 24 months. And this causes them to overlook one of the greatest marketing schemes in all of dentistry is when your dad, 87 you said?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
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Retires across the street and he puts up his practice for sale and you say, "Well, okay, he's selling it for this much money and he's got this many charts," and if your average acquisition patient was $150 per person and he's selling these people at $100 a head. And then when your dad says, "Well, I sold my office to this young lad across the street," that's third person endorsement, so it implies trust and hopefully maybe one of their staff comes with it. So these are just massive numbers, that if you didn't know on Shark Tank, they'd always say, "Well, you know what really disappointed me is that you don't have a firm grasp on your numbers, so I'm going to pass." They always say, "If you don't know your numbers"-
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah, it's true.
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Howard Farran:
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They're always going to pass.
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Joy Gendusa:
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Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
|
So if one of my homies went to postcardmania.com, what would they find?
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Joy Gendusa:
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Oh, they'd find tons of case studies. They'd have to look specifically for dental. They'd have to go to industry and find dental, but there's a ton of dental case studies. Out of the 350 industries that we have serviced, I would say that dental is probably the one that we do the best and know the best.
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Howard Farran:
|
Why is that? You just say that to all ... you just say that to me because I'm ... if I was a chiropractor-
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Joy Gendusa:
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No. No. No, seriously, I would not say that because dental is ... first of all, dentists ... everybody needs to get their teeth fixed. Everybody. So, it's an awesome business to be in and they bank. If they know what they're doing, they'll know how to make money. So they have a marketing budget, so we've been able to do so many campaigns over the 18 years I've been doing this and test them out and get all the results and come up with exactly what works that we know how to get response for them. Chiropractors are the worst. You can never get them back on the phone. I love chiropractic, but getting them on the phone and getting them to spend a dime on marketing is like pulling teeth, so we don't even target chiropractors. So, I'm telling you, dentists is our top industry. It's the one that we're best at.
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Howard Farran:
|
Do you find a moral dilemma for yourself to help lawyers? I see you have attorneys on your list too.
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Joy Gendusa:
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It depends on what kind of law they do. There are some industries that I will not service.
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Howard Farran:
|
So you said something very profound. The one thing about dentists is they're smart. They've got eight years of college, they've read ... if you've ever spent the night with one, they've always read 100 or 1,000 non-fiction books. So when it comes to marketing, they always think the best ideas since all they know is that they're always the smartest person in the room, so they should design their own ad. So you say, "You don't have to reinvent the wheel with your dental office marketing, in fact, we strongly advise against it. We have delivered thousands of dental marketing campaigns and have tracked results. We already know what is the best." But it seems like dentists always think, "Well how could you design a dental ad? You're not a dentist. I'm a dentist. I can walk across my swimming pool without getting my shoelaces wet. I'm a doctor of everything who just happens to do dentistry on the side." And then they just go write a ad with a bunch of bloody, gory pictures and say, "We do root canals, we drain abscesses, we get the bugs out of your gum disease."
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|
But what do you think works on a postcard? You were saying you like the color blue, which other people on this show have said, "Blue is a color that's soothing and builds trust."
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Exactly. We found that blue is really good. We have found that three offers, like three different deals, offers, coupons, whatever you want to call them work really well. Having a picture of the dentist on the card, for sure, a must. A map. We also want to see a five-star review. We usually will pull it off of their Yelp or pull it off of their Google Reviews or pull it off of whatever software they use, we can find them easily enough. And we always want the call to action to be a different color than the rest of the card that doesn't really match the card necessarily. That's very hard to get a dentist to agree to, but we know that making the call to action a completely different color drags the eye involuntarily to that call to action as the last thing that they'll see and the first thing that they'll see. So, we ... how's that?
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Howard Farran:
|
I like that. So you said blue, then you said three offers. What offers do you think work? Is it for cleanings, bleaching, bonding, veneers?
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah. Let me see if I can see some of these. They're a little bit small and I'm a little bit blind on what I'm looking at right now. But usually giving them the intro package, and it depends on the area that you're in, but a check-up and x-rays all for $99 is something that's good. Free whitening for life is another one that's good. Let me see if I can get some of these. I have so many of them and you know we're giving away like an awesome full report to anybody who ... like a very comprehensive report with tons of case studies for anyone that listens to this podcast, and all of these offers are in there.
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Howard Farran:
|
Oh, do it for me. For my Today's Dental. I'm here in Phoenix.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, sure.
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Howard Farran:
|
My dental office is TodaysDental.com.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
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Howard Farran:
|
And for the picture, I don't know if anybody notices it, but I actually have a picture of Marky Mark in there for me. I just dropped his picture in there and it seems to work well. When they come in the office, they go, "Are you really the dentist?" And I'm like, "Yeah." So a picture of Marky Mark, and then a map, a five-star review.
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
You are like hilarious. I don't know, do your other guests just sit there cracking up like I am? I mean, you are hilarious.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
But yeah, I would like to do that. Well, that's a big part of my secret sauce is that it's one thing to talk about a dentist, how to run a dental office. But I've had a dental office for 30 years. I recommend products that I use. I've done every damn dental procedure that you can think of, so it's fun. It's kind of a yin-yang to actually do.
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
How do you think Strup did? Did he do good?
|
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Howard Farran:
|
So what did he do on you?
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh my God. He did everything. I went in there and I said, "Hey, I was thinking of getting Invisalign or something." And he goes, "We're not straightening your teeth until we handle all the pathology." I'm like, "What pathology?" And he was like, "Oh, you're a hot mess." So, basically, I needed gum surgery, I needed ... he redid everything-
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Howard Farran:
|
Which periodontist did he send you to?
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Joy Gendusa:
|
He sent me to ... oh God. I even had-
|
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Howard Farran:
|
I'm sure the periodontist told you he was a god, so you got it close. You said, "Oh, God."
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, the periodontist ... I actually hooked his son up with one of my girls that work for me and they dated a little bit and I can't think of his name. Melka, Melker, Dr. Melker.
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Howard Farran:
|
Dr. Melkers, yeah, Danny Melkers. Danny Melkers.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Howard Farran:
|
Daniel Melkers. He's got several, he's got like 10,000 posts on DentalTown. But no Strup, I have flown down to Clearwater, Florida several times where he's had 1,000 people in a hotel and giving a lecture and Danny Melkers is a ... they're just two intense, perfectionist people. And most dentists are kind of laid back and it's a great profession, but these guys are just intense. They're just intense.
|
|
|
So I know what my homies are thinking. They're thinking, "Okay, Joy, look, here's the deal. I already pay ... every month, I pay all my bills. I pay my rent, mortgage, equipment, [inaudible 00:29:58], computer, insurance. I pay all my bills. You know what I need? I need another 10 new patients a month." If they called you up and said, "Joy, I need 10 more new patients a month," what would you tell them?
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
I would tell them they probably should do about 6,000 cards a month and they definitely should do Direct Mail 2.0, that's with the call tracking and the mail tracking and the Google Retargeting. Or not Retargeting for dental, just geotargeting. And I would tell them that there's no one-shot wonder, like if you do it once, you're going to have 10 new patients a month. It's something that you have to do consistently. And all of our dentists that are consistent marketers are all ... continue to use us and all have great results. We have tons of video case studies, so the guys who are consistent are the ones who wind up giving us the case studies, so it's really successful to be consistent.
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Howard Farran:
|
Well check out my Today's Dental. I'm in 85044 and I attract also 8504-
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Wait a minute. What is it called? My ...?
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|
Howard Farran:
|
Today's Dental.
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|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Today's Dental?
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|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah. T-O-D-A-Y-S Dental.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Okay.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
And basically, it's really weird, because I'm like across the interstate from Tempe.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah.
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Howard Farran:
|
But almost nobody crosses the interstate to go to a dentist. You know what I mean? The interstate is like a mental barrier. I've had so many dentists say that you can be right up to a river in Pittsburgh, but you'll get almost no one from across the river. But you might get people from seven miles the other direction.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
That's interesting.
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Howard Farran:
|
But it's freeways, rivers, parks. They're kind of natural barriers to cross.
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Nice site.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Is it a nice site?
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah. It's very nice. The colors are the right colors.
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Howard Farran:
|
Well, send it ... my email is Howard@DentalTown.com. My office manager is Robert@TodaysDental.com, but I'd like to do this, because I've heard nothing but good things about you. In fact, your last article was so long ago, you should do another article about this, about the color, because really, dentists always want more new patients. But where did you pick 6,000 cards a month and you've already said three times, you've already used the word three times: geotargeting, but I don't think anybody listening to this show knows really what geotargeting is.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, let me ... yeah, I apologize.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So, where did you get the 6,000? Why wasn't it 5,000, 7,000?
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Because-
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
And wouldn't it have sounded better if you had said 6,218, because then they'd think, "Damn, she really has a reason for that number."
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, but the thing is is that's a great place to start. It's just a really good place to start to see ... for 10 new patients a month. If you need more than 10, we have doctors that are doing 24,000 pieces a month. We print in increments of 6,000 or 5,000, so we've done so many mailings of 6,000 that that's a number ... that's our go-to test campaign to see what ... once you're doing it a few months in a row to see what the results are. And then at that point ... because we can't do all the work for the dentist. We can't look at like how many ... we can tell them how many competitors are surrounding them, but we don't know how well they're marketing. And we can also tell them the number of households. And we can also tell them how many people are searching monthly for a dentist online. But I can't go in and do blind shopping their competitors, do all that other stuff, so we have to give them something to start with, to test and see what they're going to get from it.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Well, the greatest marketing campaign ever done in dentistry is when Walter Palmer went to Africa and shot Cecil the lion. So, I want to get ... remember that? Do you remember that?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
I do remember that.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
They crashed his server. So what I want to do is I want to get a picture of me at the Phoenix Zoo shooting, you know they've already done a lion, I want to shoot like a hippo or a giraffe.
|
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Like a caged animal.
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|
Howard Farran:
|
Or a rhino.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Like a caged animal.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, I want to be that-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, that'll help your practice.
|
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Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, my website would get so many hits, it'll probably crash. So more questions about urban/rural. Like, you're in Clearwater/Tampa. How many miles away from an office would you mail to, as opposed to if you were in some small town like Beaumont, Texas?
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Joy Gendusa:
|
Okay, so.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Urban/rural.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Well, basically, here we would probably go a good five to six miles out.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
In the city?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
In Clearwater, like from the practice, surrounding the practice.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Five to six mile radius?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Radius of the practice.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So a 10 to 12 mile diameter?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, because I've driven ... I mean, now I go to Dr. Rodeghero, happens to be very close to where I live, but I've driven ... and Strup is actually two blocks from my office. But that's not why I picked Strup, I picked Strup ... I would have driven anywhere because he was a really good recommendation. But I've driven ... I did go to another guy briefly when I learned about that I needed the ... what are they called? The laser. And this guy did it in his practice, and I drove quite far, but then he told me I didn't need to do it. He said it was BS. So, he was like, "You're not there yet." And I [crosstalk 00:35:33]
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So you say five to six miles in the city is what you postcard mail to, a 10 to 12-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Well, it's not a city. Not a city. I mean, if you were in New York City, I would say a couple blocks, you know?
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
It depends on how dense the city. This is a town, so I would say this is kind of suburban, I would say five to six miles. I would say rural 20 miles. I would say in a city, it really depends on the city. I would ask the dentist to look at all of the addresses of his patients and who's the furthest away. Sort your list by zip code and who's the furthest away, and how many people are coming from that far so that we could see what's real-
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
I'm across the street from Guadalupe Indian Reservation. Do you also do these flyers in Spanish?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, absolutely. Sure.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
And then when your flyers ... say like when you're doing Kansas, do you just take away all the words and go to like the pictures on the Waffle House menu and the IHOP and just have pictures of everything?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Pictures only. Oh my goodness gracious. You are hilarious. Oh, my goodness gracious.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
No, I can throw Kansas under a bus because I was born and raised there and that would probably be a great idea that I would do a Waffle House, IHOP postcard.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, my goodness.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So 6,000. What would the 6,000 cards cost, and then is it-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, good question. I have no idea.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Is it one price to print mail and then an upgrade to do the geotargeting? And please explain geotargeting in detail because I don't think any of my homies understand that.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Okay, yeah. First, let me explain geotargeting. So basically, what we can do now on Google is we can do a radius around your practice and have everybody who goes online see ads that look like the postcard you're sending. So, let's say we're mailing to specific demographics and we're not mailing to every single household surrounding your practice. Like, we're only mailing to let's say 6,000, but there's 15,000 households in the radius, right? But we're picking particular demographics. So all 15,000 households will see these ads, so we're targeting them geographically, thus geotargeting, around your practice. That way, whoever gets your postcard, and also everybody else in the area are going to see these ads literally hundreds, sometimes thousands of times. They're just going to see them everywhere. That's geotargeting. In terms of price, I have no freaking clue. I haven't-
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So geotargeting is when you're combining a direct mail piece postcard with Google stuff.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Right.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
It's just Google, it's not Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn or ...?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Right. Right, it's just Google. It's just the regular Google, sites in the Google network.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
And what about Bing?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, there'll be ... we tend to use the Google network, but if you're on Bing and that's your search engine, you're still going to see them because even if you're using Bing, which is about this big compared, it's tiny compared to Google, that doesn't ... just because you use Bing as your search engine, it doesn't mean that you're only seeing websites in the Bing network. Most sites you see are in the Google network.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
When you're at a party and someone tells you they use Bing, do you just kind of like walk away?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
I just kind of throw my head backwards and belly laugh now.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
You figure something either went wrong in their childhood or they really need to stop drinking. They've had one too many and they need to eat some food.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
One too many.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, that is amazing. And what was Microsoft's encyclopedia when they came out with it? What was it, Encartia?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, Encarta. Yeah.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Encarta, yeah. It's like, why don't you do a search on Bing for Encarta and get back to me. I'm pretty sure everyone else Googles Wikipedia, but you go Bing search on Encartia. Yeah, interesting. So, what do you ... you don't know what that would spend, but do you have an idea?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
I have an idea. I have an idea. Let me just look at my ... I don't know what the lists cost anymore. I can find that easily enough. I have 33 marketing consultants that know all the pricing. I'm ...
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So what are your marketing consultants? What do you mean a marketing consultant?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
A marketing consultant is someone who will ask the dentist or anyone they're talking to all the right questions to figure out what's going to be the best campaign for them. They're all very intricately trained by me.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Do you separate these consultants based on geographical region, like I might sell for Florida or Texas? Or is it based on occupation like attorneys, chiropractor, dentist?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, industry-specific so that they really can learn the most about-
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So how many do you have in dental?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
About 11.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
You have 11 dental direct mail consultants?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, but they do other industries too. They're not exclusively dental. But 11 of them.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
You know what might be a fun follow-up to this, Ryan? Have you ever ... do you remember the Brady Bunch?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, I love the Brady Bunch. Are you kidding?
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
And we can ... on Skype we can do four. You know what, you should come back on the show. We've done the CEO, the founder, the owner. You could come back with three others or you could come back with four new ones and we could do the Brady Bunch where we just have them go around talking-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, we could do that. Talking dental marketing? Oh, we can definitely do that.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
I think that would be fun to have a Brady Bunch roundtable where there's four people on the screen-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
That would be super fun [crosstalk 00:41:28]
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
... talking about people doing dentistry. And for those old farts out there that think advertising is bad for the industry, it's immoral and all that, I notice one of your categories is church growth. So churches use this, right?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
So, it can't be ... you can't really go to hell for direct mail if the churches are doing it. My two older sisters are nuns and I'm sure they would be very opposed to any form of advertising for a church.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Really?
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Why? Why? Why would they be opposed to that? They get people back to God.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
They don't even think Lutherans are going to heaven.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
No, they're getting people going back to God. There's a lot of ...
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, it's just different taboos, you know what I mean?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, I guess. I guess.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
There's just so many taboos. But yeah, I find that interesting that when I was getting in trouble in '87, '88, '89 for advertising and a lot of dirty looks and all of that stuff, I would have all these flyers from 18 different churches in 85044. I'm like, "Dude." The two Lutheran churches are mailing to my mailbox. How come ... in fact, the only church that never sent me a direct mail piece was the Catholic church.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Really?
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, well they specialize in one thing and that is losing market share for the last 2000 years. I mean, Europe was 99% Catholic in 1500 AD, now they're, what are they 11%? So they specialize in losing market share. But, these are just jokes I love to say to get my sisters to slap me. So, what other advice do you think you should be giving my homies?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Let's see. Let's see. You know, really, honestly, is look at what the successful dentists, the large practices are doing. Look at how much they're spending on marketing. Look at how they're handling their front desk. This has all been done and it's been done super successfully, so if you're not winning, you're just not looking in the right place for the answers.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
That's good. Back in the day, they used to always ... people would mail dental offices these flyers that you could get a list of all the new people that moved in your zip code that month.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Uh-huh.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Is that ... and then, it's really different from, if you look at the data pre-building the interstates, it was like before the interstates were built, it was like 90% of people were born, raised and died and never went 90 miles away from their home. Now, with this extensive interstate, airplanes, 10% of Phoenix flips every year. I mean that is just amazing.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
That's huge.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
10%. So do you ... what do you think about the new patient mailing? Are you into that? Should that be-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah. We have a program. We definitely have a program. It's called New to Town and it's on automatic and you can decide if you want to do 500 or 1000. We'll tell you what the monthly average is surrounding your practice of how many people are moving to town. And then, definitely we want to say welcome to the neighborhood. We make those cards personalized, so they'll say, "Hey, Joe Smith, welcome to the neighborhood." Or whatever the person's name is. And it will say, "We have a special offer just for you, obviously you need a new dentist." Anyway, we're into the program for sure. And they can choose the quantity that they want, it's just on automatic.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Well, man, I'm thinking like a zip code like the dentist's zip code in a city like Tampa, I wouldn't even think there'd be 500 people moving out and in that zip code.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
It is?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, yeah.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
It's high?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
It's high. Yeah, you'd be surprised.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
I know it's a very transient family. I have patients where ... I have like three or four families where their biggest regret in life is that their daughter had a chance to go overseas for a semester to study her major or whatever and they thought, "Well that would be really cool that she goes and studies in London or Paris or Germany for a semester, not realizing that she met a boy over there-
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
She's never coming home.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
... fell in love, and now their grandbabies are in Germany and they blame it all on themselves because they were the idiots that paid for her to go to another country and study school for a year. But yeah, I don't think too many dentists sit down and think about how transient their backyard is.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's people ... it is. I mean, the stats are out there. Anybody, any practice I can tell you what the average is in whatever mile radius surrounding the practice that they'd be interesting in how many new families are moving to town.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Huh. Well, so I can't believe that 50 minutes have already gone by. I've only got you here for a few more minutes. These kids walk out of dental school, and after eight years of college, they start their own business, they don't know how to do payroll and Quicken online. They don't know any business. They just know none. And so if you ... talk to that little girl. She's 25, she just walked out of dental school. She's going to go to some small town in Wisconsin and start her own dental office in this retail shopping mall next to a Starbucks. What does she need to know about marketing?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
She needs to know that in the first year, she's going to spend way more in marketing than she is in year two or year three. And that building the practice and making it viable is what she has to have most of her attention on aside from doing good work. If she goes to our website, we have a case study, we have a video case study of a young woman, I don't know her age, but she's a very attractive young woman that we recently flew out and did a case study of her and she was a brand new practice and she gives all the details of exactly what she did. I wish I knew them by heart, but I don't.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
That is a case. And I'd like to remind her also, when Hollywood does a $100 million blockbuster movie, they only spend $50 million doing the damn movie. They spend the other $50 million marketing the movie. And that was a big thing that's not fair about everybody always talking about Walt Disney. Everybody always talks about Walt Disney. Walt Disney was crazy, nuts and insane and would have gone completely bankrupt every time if it wasn't for his brother. And if you get into the details of the Disney deal, his brother would give him a budget and Walt would never be done with his cartoon and his brother had borrowed the money and scheduled the marketing with the other half, and he would tell him no and his brother would literally have a conniption that "It's not done. We need to change the ending." And his brother would say, "Dude, it's a cartoon and it's for kids and you ran out of money, okay? It's over. It's over."
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Can I tell you something? I interviewed Mike Lindell, the My Pillow guy yesterday for my newsletter and his business did $280 million last year and he spends $1 to $2 million a week on marketing.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah. And you would never know who Walt Disney was if he didn't have a brother who was nose to the grindstone telling this crazy artist guy drawing mice, that no, that's the ending. End of story. We're going to spend the rest on marketing. If we don't spend ... and dentists will go build this amazing office and all this equipment, buy lasers and CAD/CAMs and all this stuff, and then you say, "Well, what was your marketing budget to launch this business?" And they're like, "What? What? Well, if you build it, they will come." "Dude, that's a Disney movie. That was a fictional movie and you believed it." You have to budget marketing, otherwise you're not going to get a patient.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
You're like my new favorite person ever.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Well, you know what? You're in Clearwater, you ought to come to our ... we have an annual meeting every year for 15 years. We've always had it in Vegas, but now that I'm a grandpa and I got two grandkids, I'm moving it to, starting next year, we've signed up the next two years in Orlando.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, wonderful.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
It's April 11 to April 14 in Orlando, but I love dentists. I am a dentist. I've been a dentist forever. I mean, I get it, there's nothing more fun than getting a patient out of pain or a cosmetic emergency or fixing their tooth. A fireman wants a fire, the policeman wants to catch the bad guy, we just want to fix something broken with our hands in your mouth and oral surgery. I get that. So, my job as a leader is trying to say, "Okay, I get that, but you need to go stick your nose over here," because if they did this, if they did this type of stuff, they'd get to do a lot more of what they love. If all you want to do is root canals, then you should call Joy Gendusa at PostcardMania and then you can do what you love to do. But you gotta be a businessman and a dentist. Just like that guy, you said he's making pillows?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, the My Pillow guy. You don't know the My Pillow guy, Mike Lindell?
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, I've seen his commercials. They're all made in the United States, what is it?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1,500 employees, $280 million in revenue and $1 to $2 million a week on marketing. $75 million a year on marketing.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah, and when they're trying to sell your 6-year-old little daughter who doesn't even know her last name or what country she lives on to go see a movie made with mice and princesses and Donald Ducks and all that stuff like that, it's marketing. Everything is marketing. In fact, Ryan, hand me those two books there. Last plug for one of my buddies. One of my favorite books is ... did you ever read this one by Fred Joyal, Everything is Marketing?
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
No.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
That's the guy who used to own 1-800-DENTIST.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
Oh, okay.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
He had another one called Becoming Remarkable, but the bottom line Everything is Marketing is, the old school guys they want everything done by word of mouth referral.
|
|
Joy Gendusa:
|
It's just not that way anymore. You can't fill a practice that way anymore. You just can't.
|
|
Howard Farran:
|
Yeah. And back to what I say, if you love pulling teeth, doing root canals, crowns, the best way to do more of what you love is to just get a lot more people in the door. So anything else you want to say to my homies?
|
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Joy Gendusa:
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I have a terrific report that we're giving away to them. You know what, why don't we do this? Why don't I make a page and I'll give it away there.
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Howard Farran:
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All right.
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Joy Gendusa:
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That would be the easiest. That way they could just go there and there's ... this is a very comprehensive report. There's an incredible checklist included in it that is everything you need to know about your marketing and if you don't understand it, then you know you need some help. It has tons of case studies in it and I'd love to give that to your listeners.
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Howard Farran:
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Awesome. And email that to me also at Howard@DentalTown.com.
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Joy Gendusa:
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I will. I'll send it to you.
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Howard Farran:
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And Ryan, when you post your podcast, where are you going to post it under buddy? And then under marketing, we have marketing, dentist's websites, yeah, I would put it under marketing. So what is your 1-800 number?
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Joy Gendusa:
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855-980-5492. 855-980-5492.
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Howard Farran:
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Well, Joy, I think you're the bomb. Homies out there, I know you want to go take an implant course. I know you want to learn how to do Invisalign. I get it, I get it, I love it too. But you gotta know your numbers. You gotta know your new patient acquisition costs. You couldn't even make it through Shark Tank. What is your new patient acquisition cost? What is your patient spend? I know for America, it's $6,500 over five years for a dentist, $6,500 for an orthodontist over two years. What is your acquisition cost? What is your spend? When someone says they're selling their practice for $500,000 that doesn't even mean anything. Is that $500,000 for 1,000 patients, 2,000 patients, 3,000 patients? So know your numbers and Joy Gendusa, thank you so much that on a Friday afternoon you wanted to come on my show and spend an hour with my homies today. I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.
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Joy Gendusa:
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I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. You are hilarious. Thank you.
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Howard Farran:
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And I want to read your husband's book.
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Joy Gendusa:
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My husband's book?
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Howard Farran:
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I mean he married someone 10 years younger that owns a $50 million company. I want to read that damn book. Can he send me an autographed copy of that book?
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Joy Gendusa:
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He's got his own good company that makes tons of money.
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Howard Farran:
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All right, well, hey, thanks for spending an hour with me today.
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Joy Gendusa:
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My pleasure.
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Hi. I'm Joy Gendusa. Thanks for listening to my podcast with Dr. Farran. As a special gift to dentistry and censured listeners, I'm offering a free dental marketing kit. Go to postcardmania.com/HowardFarran to download a comprehensive dental marketing checklist for you or your office manager to use to make sure no marketing dollar is wasted. It covers everything from scoping out your competitors to designing a direct mail piece to optimizing your local search results and more. You'll also get a collection of real case studies from dental clients of mine that include all the details of their campaign and results, the ones you heard me talking about on the show. This way, you can see what's worked for other practices and use that data to inform your future marketing efforts. Go to postcardmania.com/HowardFarran today if you're serious about growing your practice.
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