Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost.
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1080 Talking About The Funnel with Shamil Radia: Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1080 Talking About The Funnel with Shamil Radia: Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

9/4/2018 11:40:58 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 582

Shamil Radia started his first online venture 16 years ago and since then has created millions of dollars in new revenue streams for multiple industries across the globe.


He lives by a simple philosophy –

“Being semi-retired in youth is far better than being fully retired when you are old”.


In order to help Dentists and practice owners spend more time with their families and live “semi-retired” lives earlier, he has dedicated his life to helping solve the problem of patient lead generation, conversions and most importantly how to integrate existing technologies to automate critical business processes within the practice.


He is the co-founder of Bizi360Dental, That Smiling Dentist, BiziMobile, Bizi360 and several other startups, is regularly called upon by the top leaders across the globe to help automate their transactional revenue streams. He is widely known as a pioneer in building online “sales funnels”.

He also lives what he teaches. This means he spends as much time as possible with his family and doing stuff he loves – rolling golf putts and building funnels.


The outcome of this type of modern scale is being able to control and predict new profit generation by following simple, battle tested best practices and understanding how to leverage the data available, so you can do what matters most - live life.

Experience leads to scale. Everything Shamil has done and sold over the last 16 years has been documented and deployed in his own businesses. The results and case studies you see are a result of well over a decade of testing, failing, succeeding and figuring stuff out in the real world.


“The best solutions to problems come from those directly affected by those problems themselves”. During his early career, Shamil has helped many of the top companies across NA with their CyberSecurity strategies starting with their applications. He is now helping others use the knowledge he gained during this time across thousands of different sales and marketing models to integrate their own sales and marketing strategies. (this during many evenings and weekends while having 3 kids and traveling to client sites)


It’s not about the traffic.

VIDEO-DUwHF #1080 Shamil Radia


AUDIO-DUwHF #1080 Shamil Radia

Howard: It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Shamil Radia all the way from Ontario Ottawa Ontario Canada the capital of Canada. He's with the technology he has his busy 360 dental and his websites I want to start with a little trivia though people don't realize this about Canada, two stats about Canada if you're in dentistry Canada and California are about identical in everything population GDP number of dentists but on Canada's two largest cities Toronto and Montreal and where he's at in Ottawa it's actually south of Seattle. The stats I'm reading is that ninety percent of the Canadian population lives within a hundred miles of the US border in this border.

Shamil: US border, yup.

Howard: and a huge chunk of that population is actually south of Seattle and you don't realize this until you go to Detroit and you realize that when you go to Detroit if you drive south of Detroit and cross into Canada you drive east you crossing in Canada North you drive into Canada but so how's the old Canada today it's actually a hundred and fourteen degrees today in Phoenix, what is it in Ottawa?

Shamil: I believe the reason why is because the line kept going further south when we lost that war okay so the line kept going further south as a colder it got so it's pretty cold up here in Ottawa in those winter months so I can imagine that's why some of the Americans decided to stay down there.

Howard: What's your temperature there right now?

Shamil: Oh we're you know what we've had a very been an incredibly hot summer this year you know we're actually probably close to Phoenix weather this year right we've been in the 40s so for us in celcius I guess this in the 40s which would be in the hundreds for your late you know high nineties and low hundreds sort of thing.

Howard: Really

Shamil: Absolutely gorgeous but almost six months ago Howard it was minus 40 right so, yeah what's that in Fahrenheit?

Howard: Outtawa right now it says right this moment it's 98 degrees in Phoenix and 72 degrees in Ottawa so you're a good 26 degrees cooler in Fahrenheit.

Shamil: and it's a cold rainy day today Howard's so earlier it was nice and beautifully gonna wait about 20 minutes in Ottawa and you know and you'll see rain right so this year we've been really lucky but yeah I was looking at the weather in Vegas which I'll be in about a week with the family and I noticed that you know it's there's no rain there 0% chance of rain and 0% it's not even it's zero.

Howard: Well the reason I asked you to be on the show and you didn't ask me to be on the show the reason I asked you to be on the show is you know I'm a dentist I get dentist I love dentist they want to do root canals fillings crowns they I mean a hundred percent of dentists or surgeons they do surgery at their hand whereas MD's not even ten percent do surgeries and they just want to take courses on dentistry and you and I wanted you to come on there because it's being a leader I would have tried to spoon-feed the dentists things they don't want to listen to and you talked a lot about the funnel and I that's why I love listening to you the funnel. I mean you ask a dentist you know how many people end up your website and in a month they don't know, for every hundred people that land on your website how many convert and call your office they don't know how many people if a hundred people call your office how many do you convert to a scheduled appointment I don't know if people came in with one cavity that you could diagnose on an x-ray what percent get a filling I don't know and then I say well what questions you have no Howard what bonding aging you recommend oh I don't know there's only like ten of them that work perfectly. My whole answer on technology is that they sell a billion dollars a year of it to dentist I'm sure it works. I mean dentists right their paralysis by analysis they make decisions of speed of a snail and I got if you if if you can get dentist with eight years of college to buy your product to the tune of a billion dollars a year that freaking works. Now let's focus on the in fact when I asked you that us what is a funnel they don't even know what I'm talking about so right I want you to start a rant what is the funnel what is your busy 360 dental technology and one of my homies gonna find at that website of yours?

Shamil: Right so and brilliant question right it's one of the biggest questions we answer a daily right and so a funnel really is you know taking a cold eye ball and bringing it through a specific predictable and consistent process that gives you your desired outcome at the very end right and so in dentistry right it's taking you know the person who's strolling through and at that point you know what they've been thinking about doing something there's everyone's out there, that's why dentists are popping up every single day it's very easy to get a tense you know alone to become a dentist right I mean it's very easy to just go walk in and get a million bucks with a degree right. I mean in my small town there's like you know forty five fifty dentist serving like less than you know probably seventy thousand people right sixty thousand people I mean and that's like that's probably being conservative so the end of the day it's not all doing the same thing when they when they try and bring the you know person or that patient into practice but really it's about you know what steps are you putting that person through in order to get them that desired outcome and really funnels now and the sort of concept of funnels now is really spoken to from a digital perspective right. So if we just pull this kind of to low it like to the education you know around you know exactly where funnels are used what concepts of funnels are originally either were sales funnels right. So first thing that's hired you a sales job your business you and your tech startup and you'll hire a bunch of salespeople and their their job is to build a sales funnel right and that is you're taking people you know people who were probably you know in that discovery phase and you're moving them through a specific phase to get them to buy something from me right in the dentist world you know they spend too much time just basically trying to sell something to somebody without actually putting them through that step process first and similar to like I guess the dating the dating game right when we before we were married you know you didn't just ask somebody walk it but somebody the street and ask them to marry you but just not the way stuff works right you know that's not how you do it. Everyone right now is trying to go from you've discovered Who I am and I'm a dentist and you know I'm really good too you know I'm gonna sell you something like a crown or an implant right away right. So the thing with the funnel is what we try and do is we try to automate the build of that value to make the sales cycle shorter on the back end right, so that they can do more cosmetic implant you know higher emergent cases we always tell that it's like what are you focusing on what are you doing more of right now right as you know what I mean you know they're just reacting every single day they're just reacting like crazy a lot of them are general cases I mean we had you know one dentist who bought a second practice right because you wanted a scale and he's back doing general clinical services right when before he was doing forward reconstructive surgery three days a week right you got you know four days a week off five days a week off in a row his staff was happy they were working three days a week all he was doing is reconstructive surgery we decided to buy a second practice. So you know was the desired outcome to buy a second practice right was it really made for a lot of people the desired outcome is a work harder right and my desired outcome places are gonna outcome when we found in this company you know was to not work like more hours it was to actually spend more time in our lives with our family and doing things that we love and I'm able to do that now right when I build funnels we you know all this stuff that we've done as a result of complete failure for like years right and building stuff and planning out the jam what works right and now one you know specific okay we found it great and we're in cyber security for this 14 years and we hit this one thing and then I you know I've invested in a ton of domains I'm a crazy domain here I buy a lot of domains as small these things I do on the side so I have like 350 domains and you know I'll just build little kind of news article sites and steal just see what doesn't that whole time we were just building a system right the people could replicate in order to automate their time so that they can spend more time on what really matters and that's selling and you know not and solving problems right. So for a an all on four patient for instance right that fiche a term on for which we know is a five six or seven full reconstruct them whatever you want to call it right that patient that's worth over thirty five thousand dollars there are much different than the patient obviously that you know it just wants to get it cleaning right it's they're not even close. So when the receptionist answered the phone there's no difference between the way the receptionist is answering the phone right so with the full reconstructive patient they may have taken like almost two years or sorry I'm sorry I'm you know ahead of to two weeks or three weeks or perhaps even two years right to make that decision to even just call into the practice and get and get this taken care of hey they've been through all sorts of research the person's done you know their homework on the dentist and they pick up the phone it called and you know the receptionist had a bad barista at Starbucks that morning right and pissed and it's like their second call and it was a Monday morning and you know they're just torn slightly off right now $40,000 patients gone it's all relative there is no so that's so but but if they were just calling to get it clean it's a much different story right and so the funnel and what we do with the funnel is we say all right it doesn't matter what you have right doesn't matter all the eyeballs are going to be cold they're all going to be the same right and they're all going to be like something where you can you know determine you know this is a cold eyeball I know this is a cold eyeball but I have a dentist and I want to sell for something right I want to sell them a crown or an implant or some sort of high margin service but I know I've gotta like give away free teeth like okay. What we deem to do is is take away that concept right and automate those early steps in their sales site okay so funnel is basically essentially it's in the dental world world it's three or four core steps it's very simple right. The way people are doing it right now is they'll send say solar a door their traffic directly to both their contact page okay so it's here's I'm a dentist I'm gonna do implants for like five grand or four grand call me and sent directly to their to their implant page okay or they're sorry their contact page what they're not doing in between there's offering any sort of value right they're not bring absolutely no value to that patient or that person in return for what they're spending on what their investment that's what caused a lot of apathy in this market right, is people get really pissed because they're like our marketing is a scam you know advertising the scam my sales process is great I convert all sorts of people I have no problem with myself process yeah I'm stank year the growth right I have no predictable way and actually generate a volume of leads that I can fail with or succeed with anybody my absolute terrible sales and I had like a thousand leads come in I'm gonna close at least one or two of those I'm gonna make up my money right and so with the funnel what we do is step one okay a very very rich step call the lead magnet right it's why they're actually you know going to click on your button in the first place right.

Howard: The lead what?

Shamil: It's called the lead magnet.

Howard: Okay the lead magnet.

Shamil: and so Ryan Deiss and Russell Brunson they're guys you know huge leaders in this because they talk about this a lot right there sort of defining some of these steps for years and I really it's human behaviors it's always been human behavior it's there it hasn't been any different from back in the day when we were buying Columbia House records right or tapes when we were ordering them for one sent was the exact same funnel so the core first step is called the lead magnet right and that is in our world it's a display ad right so somebody that's scrolling through the news or scrolling through a specific publication or what have you and you know and they click on something at download in the dentist case a guide to dental implants right and that's essentially all it is we're not pitching the dentist whatsoever they're just downloading we're just asking them to download a guide. Right which takes them to step two which is what all the micro commitment write some sort of micro commitment or a tripwire. Now what generally dentists are doing right now is we're giving away like free teeth whitening in order for somebody to come and become a general patient right and that just leads to more free the person comes in yes or teeth whitening then they go off and get the next free whitening right and then they really need some dental work done they go and they look for that dentist right so free leads to more free and so what we wanted to do was establish something in that second step but doesn't constant to any money at all right and that's a guide. So I mean you didn't become a doctor as you know it Howard I mean you're a doctor you spent years just writing lots of stuff I mean God you guys could write books people don't realize how much they can I should when asking that does hey can you write about this procedure they just clam up having their writer's block they can't do it just write Rob write just go out there and write stuff about a procedure to help people you're already talking about just gonna develop some content for yourself right don't have it be the exact same concept that everybody else is writing that's just define you know eyes you know what's under the hood right I don't care how the car is built I care that the Ferraris there that's what I want to buy right I don't really care what engineer or how they built the car and nobody's asking you about that right. What they're asking about is you know how much does it cost can I afford it and is it gonna make me look better right and so at the end of the day in step two what you're trying to do is you're trying to establish Authority for that right you're trying to establish you know Authority and some sort of value for that dentist while they sleep right and so the best part about step one and step two is all this is automatic right, none of those kind of stuff what they're doing is stuff that they can they actually have to spend manual time doing right these are leads that are actually generated and stuff that you know interest is generated in themselves and their practice right automatically right while they sleep or whether working out other cases so second step is what we call that micro commitment or that tripwire right. Ryan Deiss calls it a tripwire people call it different stuff but you know tripwire is kind of that micro commitment second step and let's generate a landing page and asks them and download the guide right. So step three in our world right is the consultation form at that point so they've downloaded the guide, they've seen you know dentists can help them the scene that they've written a comprehensive you know 35 page guide a lot pictures it's gonna show me their surgeries and so forth and step three is do you want to come in and see me right. So rather than send them from you know which everyone is doing right now step one which is Here I am I'm a dentist and I'm new in town and there's like 60 about 16 going around and it's actually for just underneath my practice I decided to open up just to bother them but you gotta come see me over anybody else so okay I said you can spend like 10 grand a month sending you directly than what a common type age and I'm gonna have no idea how to measure them right that's exactly what their doing, it sounds nuts that's what they're doing that's exactly what they're doing right now. So what we try and do is we try and take them from step one which is your lead magnet step two which is making a micro commitment and power of that micro commitment of giving them that email address in return for that guide that download right is they in their mind they've made some sort of that commitment in their mind right which what people don't realize if they're not you know if they haven't been through like thousands of difference those calls and different sales cycles is the smallest little things at the very start of the sale cycle affect the largest decisions yet right, so you know in this case it's I've made a micro commitment to this dentist to download their guide and if the guides informative enough it's gonna make me a lot easier to buy something from you in the future like Howard I mean if I'm you know someone watched you and you talk your podcast and patients are watching like you know there's probably people flying in from all over the world who want to see Howard right there's a reason they do that right there's a reason why people fly in from all over the world this is a specific dentist have dentists in their own right that there's not there isn't there isn't a reason for them to do that and a lot of it will be try and eliminate especially through the building of the funnel as you're eliminating a few major things you're eliminating the manual time that you spend trying to sell people things right and you automate what you can make your profit on because you're able to measure that much much easier, you're able to take metrics that are online and say okay well in step one X number of people clicked on this step two X number of people download the guide and a step three X number of people filled out the consultation of forum right. Now it doesn't end in step three there's two more really critical key steps to this right and in fact it gets a lot deeper when you're trying to automatically sell technology products or e-commerce products but in dental the simplicity of it is in step or is ascension or basically trying to generate that excitement right prior to the patient coming in right. So the dentist needs to do that through sending out different you know email automation series that help move the patient along the natural decision cycle they're already going to be moving through anyways right Howard I mean no matter what you get the exact I mean how long you've been you know doing dentistry?

Howard: 31 years.

Shamil: Right so that you've got another venue exact same throw at that amount of time like I'm like what would you say if you boiled all those questions down how many questions would you say actually out of all those questions that are asked I mean it's like a football game right it's only really plays for like 13 minutes I think total right like how many questions really do you get overall if you condense all those down that are actually consistent?

Howard: Not many, what would you say it is?

Shamil: I would say probably 13 to 15 questions right to be honest maximum.

Howard: Now are those questions on your website?

Shamil: Those questions were actually can see them in some of the forms that we ask them to submit automatically right. So what dentist don't realize is that you know they did or actually let's just say business owner will take a little bit higher what a lot of people don't realize is that you can get as much information from that person who's interested in your service if you just ask them you just gotta ask the questions right and so like if people don't actually ask the questions not gonna get the answer to it. So what we aim to do is we actually aim to you know ask those questions right and actually basically you know put them through a sequence where they're actually comfortable enough asking those questions right. So some of the questions that we'll ask you know on forum is you know first of all what dental problems you currently experience it right it's kind of simple silly question but you know in that specific area right there because you're asking people to talk about themselves right, we see it in the metrics generally people spend between 7 & 9 minutes so on average the form Phil takes out about if the person writes you know three or two or three paragraphs on average it takes about 14 or 15 minutes for them to fill out form and what they're doing is you're thinking about exactly what they want to tell that dentist in order to get that consultation we've already generated the excitement from the filled out form so doing it via some mobile device on the bus and they decided to take action right and they're filling it up this form and so it's what that you know what a spirit is well you know I can't smile I'm turning away in pictures because I can't smile in pictures and you know and so all right so what's the most important factor in choosing this dentist, well we never get cost right cost is never the first thing that they say right it's not the first thing on their mind it's empathy its reputation it's knowledge right so again dentists have to understand a business owners have to understand how to exude the reputation and knowledge right prior to you know making them making that decisions like we're getting into that decision cycle right and so this is this is hugely hugely important right and actually in that in that decision makings like our in those in those questions as you can see from the forms right now don't suspend you know someone spending almost 15 to 17 minutes answering those those questions right. So I mean you you you just have to give me opportunity to answer those questions so that's essentially what a funnel is. Now we get into a little bit more you know especially when dentists in phase two they like to try and figure out how they can get advertising dollars for free right, how is it that we you know do free stuff or liquid we call liquid ink front end of your ad funnel right and the way we do this in neutralize that's been this you can essentially offer a product that's a lower transactional value that people will buy automatically in order to fund your ad spend knowing that you have a higher emergency service to take them to in step three and for that we just talked about right and so in dentist case it's well why aren't you giving away or selling your teeth whitening gift cards right and so on you know with gift card you know name rates are and so on and so forth or different types of services that are lower large and that you can sell trends actually where'd you know which are your Christmas people we can find them off Facebook like easy to sharing them you know moms and dads wherever it is so they buy that okay and basically you've now essentially been able to send traffic to something that someone bought from you and step one right and it finds your marketing in steps 3 & 4 so you you'll essentially you know spend $500 a day on marketing, lets just say a thousand dollars a day on marketing for pure just ads they're right and out of that thousand dollars a day you were selling hundred dollar teeth whitening right just for instance and you knew that 20 percent of those would likely not be for you but twenty percent of those were only going to be right as a dentist the rest of them were it's gonna be claimed at some point or they were just gonna come in because they had that credit and get something else right and so at the end of the day you sold ten of those at $100 now most dentists that are implementing this system are selling 20 or 30 of those right at the hundred dollar level now you've just tripled your ad spends so you can take a thousand dollars a day know that you'll make the first you know tan up in a hundred dollars times ten right made after thousand dollars in your ad spend right there and then you take the next two thousand dollars in ad spend and you dedicate it to content throwing for you know further growing your funnel right because the more you're willing to invest in eyeballs to your page the more patients are going to acquire but it's a simple difference between you know people like Amazon and anybody else right as Amazon was willing to spend you know in the early days actually they did via affiliates right people just sort of spend a massive amount of their profit I'm just having people write about their products right just go and just give them a percentage of it and so they're much lower in their margins but people to get millions of people actually writing about this way and it's all it's pure free marketing for them. So in dentistry is just they can't be Amazon and with that they're all trying to get like this three bunch of like marketing and compete with a bunch of other people who are trying to get free marketing and you know we talk like a lot a lot of guys like Jay you know talk about search results and ranking and so on and so forth right and what you know when dentists are looking at that they're saying you know I got ten spots I gotta compete for this major term Invisalign right and you know and there's like 80 of us just in this one little proximity how am I gonna compete for that what am I gonna do when they actually get to my site, right and so that's the biggest thing is how do you take your high margin services and automate the lower ends of them so that you can lead to and neutralize your ad spend and so that's kind of a little more of an advanced funnel than we talked about into you know different episodes and so on and so forth but that's the core element being able to automate very early stages of your sales cycle and being able to automate you know you know the whole the completely you know the the the cold eyeball to outcome which is what you need.

Howard: So is outcome number four number? One was a lead magnet number two was the micro commitment or tripwire number three was the consultation and what was four?

Shamil: So four is is what we call you know again creating that excitement of that any when they come into the practice right so that's when you actually are selling them something that's the conversion aspect of it right. How are you converting them from that inquiry in that step three right which was the lead that you needed into an actual conversion that's really where the rubber hits the road right that's that's where the money's made it's in that conversion right what's the offer are you are you showing them the outcome of what they could you know potentially look like during that sales process or are they just coming in you know thought they're gonna meet with the dentist that they've been you know pre frame in order to and their expectations have been set you know in the first few steps and they made it in there and you know in that step four that dentist is on vacation right and they're dealing with the treatment coordinator. You know and treatment coordinators like right here's your coffee and you know and it's great that you're experiencing this you know and dentist be back in three weeks you want to come back and see them that you know. There's some practices where they don't understand why patients were dry like 45 minutes to an hour just to see them right it's just I mean it's so the person driving 45 minutes for now and I see them you need to take advantage of that conversion in that step four and you need to be prepped you need to sort of remove all the risk that goes into you know the sales process to begin with right so what's the biggest risk to any practice right what's the biggest risk to a patient that takes them you know from you know when a patient calls into that practice well first thing that they do in the car lap practice what's the biggest risk of the dentist right it's the staff not being able to you know understand how to deal with that particular patient would turn that patient off right. So good staff or obviously the most critical component everyone we hear a lot about on the podcast we talk about that a lot right good staff and there's a lot of great staff out there but you know you haven't heard you've heard them Howard call recordings that I have to hear as part of these funnels and when people I should call into the practice you know can be absolutely you know they're staggering right. I know when wanting in front of us who crawled into you know crawl into a room for three days he just went to bed for three days when you heard the recordings just couldn't come it didn't talk them out until you had a plan for these people you know what I mean.

Howard: So what is what is your name of your podcast the smiling dentist series?

Shamil: Oh pardon me Howard sorry I didn't get that one.

Howard: What's the name of your podcast?

Shamil: So right now it's that smiling dentist show right that's smiling dentist show and we'll work you another one we haven't actually named it yet how we're looking for a good name was really again showing getting a little deeper into how dentists can integrate technology you know the different types of technology that's out there. So that's why dentists are showing them teaching them funnels and automating sales processes and their time you know and and then you know the future podcast that smiling dentist show and then the future podcast will be helping them sort of integrated technology as so and so forth.

Howard: The  father of advertising like GV black is a father dentistry in America appear for charge probably the father dentistry for the globe but for advertising he was a British man I was named David Ogilvy and he lived from 1911 to 1999 in a British advertising executive he was a genius and I love his quotes where's David Ogilvy quotes the consumer isn't a moron she's your wife, in the modern world of business it is useless to be a creative original thinker unless you can also sell what you create, a good advertisement is one which sells the product without drawing attention to itself but I like my favorite quote and I wonder if my next question is that when he says never stop testing and your advertising will never stop improving and the dentist has all these gut feelings what she thinks is a great marketing campaign but she never has the data.

Shamil: Right

Hwoward: I think the worst job in the world that I would never do is what you do because if you if some dentist gives you a bunch of money you could take their monthly incoming traffic from a hundred calls to a thousand and they'd never know it because they don't know how many incoming calls there they have no metrics and you ask any dentist this is almost the end of so after the end of the year you say how many incoming calls did you have in your office no idea how many them went to voicemail , no idea how many went to voicemail and no one even checked the voicemail no idea and they say oh I did this postcard campaign it's a postcard and I gave much of money I don't think it did anything, I say well how what month did you do it in let's say last month I said well what was last month's incoming calls versus a month before, I don't know. What was the how many people landed on your website that month versus a month for I don't know so they just they just don't track anything and it's so how do you know let's talk about tracking. What advice would you give to these young dentists and I was having dinner with an attorney one of the biggest attorney advertising's in the Phoenix Valley and I was asking him I said your television ad I always see has the same number your billboard has the same number the back of the phone book has the same number how do you how do you know if that's coming from the phone book your billboards are your TV or your radio I don't know well why you know why don't you use four different numbers well that's our number so I don't care if you're a dentist a physician a lawyer even a politician they just don't have they don't track what would what tracking services do you help doc with so she knows because all you got to do is I mean it's so easy just get to a common denominator of dollars per head I mean my gosh if you're using a phone book and it costs $500 to get a new patient and you're doing on google adwords and cost you $100 to do then just quit doing the damn phone book take that money put it in google adwords and that's all market is it's just tracking tracking tracking and Ogilvy also says something that i like "the best ideas come as jokes make your thinking as funny as possible hire people who are better than you are then leave them to get on with it look for people who will aim for the remarkable who will not settle for the routine" and the dentist is always has an a mind set well I went to dental school so the best person to write a dental ad would obviously have to be me because I'm a doctor of everything and they leave they're not humble enough to say hey maybe Shamil can do it better and just because you don't think your joke is funny maybe everyone else thinks it's funny so so talk about talk about tracking so she know because the number one bias you go through life with is your own thoughts and beliefs so if you're gonna be a dentist and you say I don't like this this and that but you're in San Antonio Texas and that's what the market wants well you're gonna be shit out of luck I mean talk about tracking.

Shamil: Yeah so actually I actually take that concept one step further actually is now were they buying sort of humor and jokes and fun but they're also buying stories right yeah you know so stories is probably the most important component of absolutely anything right and so you know speaking of stories you know it's been tracking right is you know very good claim, nine practices and one of the highest most competitive markets in the world smallest Singapore you know most expensive places to live in the world right and he spends close to 120 to 130 thousand dollars okay in Google search just click marketing his average cost per click before we kind of went to meet him and we were looking at his kind of metrics they were about 8 bucks per click right there just to give you an example

Howard: Is this 120 to 150 thousand a year or month?

Shamil: No this is a month Howard

Howard: A dentist?

Shamil: A dentist for across nine practices right was spending in just Google and Singapore dollars right his ad spend was close to a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a month all right. So he understood the value he understands the value investing and advertising to acquire claim right that's not his issue his issue is understanding how to measure exactly where his conversions were coming from for that hundred and twenty thousand dollars and ad spend across his nine practices right because the outcome for him is you know dentists will leave if they don't have enough cases to work on right it's too competitive there, there's too many people out there there's too many practices of there from sweet places they can go work right and so at the end of the end of so much dental tourism coming into that country right, So for him when you spending that kind of money

Howard: Was it a Q&M dental?

Shamil: No no this is actually yeah this is this is another dentist but it's one of their major competitors actually yeah as his major and so you know with him spending that kind of money across nine practices and not actually understanding where as conversions are coming from right so and Howard  it's very easy right you go into the back in especially with Google Ads right and they set it up for its Google Analytics right so you're just going in it's very simple it's not you know and there's a bunch of metrics there and there's one tab but you have to actually add a particular tracker to what you're tracking otherwise they won't know what you're tracking right. So the whole point is what do you track new tracking phone calls you're tracking conversions to a guide download you're tracking conversions to an appointment booking no clue all they know is our phones ringing if they spend more money on Google Ads right they just correlate the two it's like this it's like this magical thing right it's like oh if I just spend money and ads I'm gonna magically just generate new patients I mean imagine you know it doesn't work like that for a lot of people right and unfortunately right. So I mean like in a lot of markets in Singapore it could be a little bit different you just have to kind of be at the top as people relate you know people would in most markets laziness choose the first thing right Google is a very good job now kind of hiding their AD at the very top to kind of be that first clip right so you have to own many different sort of sides and many different parts of that page that decision-making process that behavioral process and so what we talk about when it comes to metrics is your invisible revenue right, so where's the invisible revenue lost and the foundations of all metrics start with gathering where all those metrics are in the first place right and so in your Google sort of world and your website it's always you know the analytics dashboard and so on the free the free tools they give away that kind of that track all this but in the funnel it's much different because you're measuring what your earnings per click are as opposed to just spending cost per click and so the difference between the two when you when dentists and people shift their mindset from saying you know I'm gonna spend and cost per click and I'm going to start figuring out what my earnings per click are right it becomes a lot different of a process that they're going through when figuring out what step 1 step 2 step 3 are okay. So when the metrics for instance you know for funnel right it's being able to say okay in Google Display ad network or any sort of we talked about it earlier kind of that you know picture or that video that pops up in someone's newsfeed right as soon as they have you know that's step one taking care of right and they've clicked on that like step one right we're able to measure whoa did they click on the green button or the blue button right there just slipped I snuck in medical it's always medical blue right in dentistry like if you ran a page if any dentists out there that have like a red website you know get rid of it if you have to like just change that the blue because you're losing like 70% of your conversions right we split test of this and the first step of the funnel and across many steps and you know and the most major metric that we look at number one is what are they clicking on like why are they clicking on something is it the headline we see it every day right there's there's bait you know click bait all the time and you know people are scrolling through news feeds and they're clicking on stuff that you know due to a headline right and so it's the same thing with a button on the website why are they clicking on that button on the website and is there a button there in the first place for them to be able to click on so you to be able to track right is it there. So number one and that first metric is understanding what they're clicking on and what you know is the color that's affecting is it the you know is it the wording that's affecting as a specific word you know. If you look at there's a study done this is a professor at some universe you know in the southern us radness I can't wear what University it was but it's a brilliant story she Russell Brunson tells the story really well it's it's an absolutely captivating way of understanding split test and what affects human behavior or not and the value of what we call setting expectations and pre frames in metrics right and so what this university professor did was prior to the year starting he sent out a bio of himself to half of his students and another half of his students received a bio that had one sentence difference right and that one sentence difference was you know designed to give a negative outlook of the professor and without that sentence you know they would have had a positive outlook at the professor right and so these classes class got this and you know they read this bio and through the furnace oh they came in for their lecture and after the first lecture they sent out a survey okay to track these students and they asked them you know after this lectures you have a positive outlook or a negative outlook of this professor and of course the folks have had a negative outlook of the professor going into the lecture prior to ever having meeting him had a negative outlook coming out of the lecture right and those that had a positive outlook of him obviously had a positive outlook leaving the lecture right if they actually paid attention but if anyone actually paid attention in that first lecture right but the point is is that you know pre framing in metrics is so important right where what what is that what is the person actually clicking on and what headline are you using to attention you grab them first of all there's tons of tools out there now I attract that metric right and so the first and one of the major landing page tools that we use you know is actually clickfunnels right so clickfunnels is one of our biggest you know kind of with its how we build a lot of our funnels, we built we have several other variants so funnels that are built using a mash-up of tools but anyone that's just getting into funnels and this so doing easily we always recommend click funnels or a dentist will kind of take over some of the pages and so it would give it to them so they can run you know snore funnels and different or things like that and so clickfunnels is the easiest way to do this. Now it allows you to track absolutely every single play every single you know action that person is taking aside from literally what they had for breakfast that morning and if you really wanted to find out what they have for breakfast that morning you can run a serve into them at some point in your funnel right and so at the end a capturing those metrics that each stage is so important. Now when people are using kind of a mash-up of tools you know we used to use things like fun bounce right again which captures the metric originally initely of what they're clicking on you know why they're downloading your stuff and what information they want originally and then there is form capture tools like sailu foo right which is a subsidiary of Survey Monkey I think Survey Monkey acquired the more follow go and woo foo allows you to measure the metrics of the amount of people the cold eyeballs right that you've been generating to actual form fills right. So with this metric works power in the way all metrics should be words and all metrics should be measured right is from how many people did you generate awareness from and step one right which was your lead magnet okay so I'm aware of you know that was like Google's world right most people can get like you know hundreds of thousands of impressions in just a few days right and so look at how here's the thousands of impressionism that display funnel, so hundreds of thousands of people saw and we're aware of that dentist at some point or you know where that brand and that service right I know to those hundred thousand people the 80/20 rule always applies right you hear a lot of people talk about eighty twenty applies to pretty much almost anything as we all know right and so twenty percent of those people right who land on your landing page will actually physically took the action to click and download the guide you know set download the guide now, so if you didn't if you clicked on my page and you did you on down with a guy that's on us right there give me a certain percentage of people who are just click happy but you know that's not a story that's on people that like you know it's on the dentist or whoever that's doing that landing page for them not to be able to take action when they get there but they're physically clicking that there's only a small percentage that do that. So you measure that metric right use you know one of these tools to measure that metric then you measure the metric from them clicking that physical button right in that second step and downloading something right so here download the guide what do they do next while they move from the guide to the actual input form right, then they move from the input form to inside the practice and the metric there can be measured in a number of ways because that's where the human element is introduced right it's where you're kind of marrying the online element and the sales and marketing element with just raw human mistakes right raw human daily kind of you know bulk bullshit that people have to go through right on a daily basis with their lives and their jobs or whatever so there's all these different factors that affect that but the way you track that internally in the practice is you have to use a CRM system and be patient cycle and so what dentists don't do enough of they don't manage the pre patient cycle manage their post patient cycle okay. So it's great like they can they can take an on board patience they can get patients in the door right and that patient comes in and they leave. I have no idea what happened most of our tracking them on Excel spreadsheets right Howard look I mean it's an Excel especially like you know we were this one dentist you know we were dealing with about a year and a half ago in the UK and right there was like five practices and you know they generated like 2,000 leads 2500 leads and their folks are tracking it via an Excel spreadsheet right it's a good call, how do you how do you don't want to follow up with this patient how do you know what that patients dog's name was right I mean you have that there's tools out there now that you can just you know put on your smartphone and just basically sit there when you're with a patient and write some of this information down and take post patient notes. The value behind tracking your pre patients cycle and your post patient cycle has already been defined by pretty much every other industry out there healthcare is always the last to follow right and unfortunately health care is always kind of you know banking and finance and technology companies are always kind of the first adopters of everything and health care is normally you know generally in a lot of cases the last adopters of a lot of the right thing so

Howard: Well health care and government

Shamil: Health care and government yeah lets not leave the government out of there.

Howard: Right I was like I can't believe it they just these people who think the government solution 911 added a texting ability to them and it's now for half a century I'm like I mean the few times I've called 911 they're like well can you give a description of the car that's rageh it's like dude I can FaceTime my 80 year old mother what why can I not just FaceTime you and show you the damn car wreck they're asking you a description well what is the person wearing it's like I mean the government is dead last. So the only people dumber than health care are the government which is so funny because when I talk to all my dentist homies what do they can't stand the most the government

Shamil: Right

Howard: They think the governor is incompetent but you only see lines in health care governor if you have to wait for something it's dental appointment or to get your driver's license, you never have to wait for a pizza I mean you never you never have to wait for anything unless the government or health care is involved and I like to always stick that in dentist butt that the only people as stupid as that is the government because I know my homies do not like the government specially in these strange times

Shamil: Oh yeah we Canadians are watching we're that apartment over as Robin Williams said the really big meth lab that's about the blow up.

Howard: I've always seen you guys as the guy is living up in the loft doing their homework looking down at all their drunken fraternity classmates who you know are gonna flunk out of the test and I say I want to read you another David Ogilvy quote that I love and remember this is the father of advertising this is as smart as a man can get and he says oh I had it right here and now I don't know where it is but anyway it was basically says that I'm the worst ads are the ones that use pretentious jargon and he was just so a stickler on say it as simply as possible and it's the dentist who says well you have an interproximal lesion you need a MOD composite and they just I mean they just use terms and see what I like to do with dentist is you're taking iPhone and you hit record and you record their treatment plan presentation then you print it out and you give them a copy and then you give another print out and you take a big black magic marker and just black out every single word that nobody would know what it meant and and I see that the most common. I mean just little things I mean I just see it every day like like you have them you just always see people stumble the most thing you know grandma asked a simple question well how much is it and the next thing you know this guy's explained like four different prices but he doesn't know because you want to you want to clean your tile first and seal it but then after its cleaned and then if it's not come to light and we might want to go back and polish it but then we could buff it and I'm sittin listenin to this guy like do I have nine years of college and I have no idea what you're talking about how you can Warren Buffett said it's the best I mean if you can't explain to me your business on a 5x7 index card on what your value is what you do it how you make money on a 5x7 card I'm running I'm running and these dentists they don't measure their treatment plan presentation they don't know what their conversion rate is and then the other problems the industry is it's a hard member it's a hard number to track because what if you recommend bleaching and Invisalign on just every patient that can benefit even a little from bleaching, Invisalign well then then how do you how do you compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges on treatment plan conversion I mean they don't know how many people land on their website, they have no idea how many call, they can't even tell you how many people last month left a message on voicemail that your staff didn't even bother to check.

Shamil: Turnoff is staggering.

Howard: So your basically whenever you're talking to a dentist about the business of Dentistry you're dealing with somewhere between Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles blind or dead and then all you're gonna listen to you know everything he wants to believe yeah I mean that if you build it they will come it's all word of mouth referral there you go if you just take the longest and do the best occlusion there'll be a liner on your door and you're like alright so convert that guy how do you convert that guy to start and then they'll even tell you this is what I understand this is why I would never do your job if they say dude I hate selling I didn't go to eight years of college the sell I don't want to sell and it's like and I don't believe that because there are women in the United States and Canada after they lost all their teeth and got a denture killed themselves.

Shamil: Right

Howard: I mean I go up to any woman and when I'm lecturing I'll go to them and I'll say how much money would I have to give you to pull your front tooth and you could never ever replace that front tooth the rest your life and they go never and I say well obviously do it for a hundred thousand dollars like are you out of your mind I said what about a million and I mean when you're selling something people wouldn't take a million dollars to lose their front tooth then you don't believe in your product and it's like dude you know I always want to tell everything if you don't believe in selling dentistry I think you shouldn't get out of dentistry and going into somthing you can sell I mean if the only thing you believe in is iPhones and and Tesla cars dentistry and ghosts go sell cars for Tesla because man when people won't take a million dollars for their own front tooth and they kill themselves. I mean another difference a huge difference between men and women is by age 40 almost every single woman is she's had at least one nightmare of losing her teeth in her dream let's see yeah and with men it's only like 10 or 20 percent by age 40 so women do not want to lose her teeth they wouldn't take a million dollars in exchange their teeth and then I'm talking to some stupid that is a lot like to sell dentistry then get out go into some you like the sell go find something you're motivated about because if you don't get excited about making teeth whiter brighter sexier straighter Invisalign bleaching bonding health and dine I feel sorry for you and you need to go find something that flips your flipper.

Shamil: Hundred percent yeah.

Howard: So how do you convert them to what to track stuff in present treatment and sell and convert and get the whole team involved in conversion because what I see in dentistry the only ones who really get it or orthodontist because...

Shamil: Yeah

Howard: If the average new patient in dentistry for the United States of America I don't care what you think yours is or whatever but for the country as a whole the data by PhD economist like Marco Billacheck you know it's about four hundred bucks but I weren't orthodontist it's like 60 so when I tell you you need to have a cavity filled and you leave the dentist doesn't even it doesn't even register but if you come in with your daughter and I do a whole consultation on braces your daughter you leave I know sixty five hundred bucks just walk out the door so the only people that I see routinely in dentistry that get it track it know it I mean you know tell them it's the ten thousand eight hundred orthodontist America who worked more than thirty two hours a week but my god my homies list of this right now the general dentist they just have no idea they don't try so how do you if they call you up and they become a client how do you convert them to think to act and think like this and to in take it serious?

Shamil: Well that's a great question it's actually a lot of times so our funnel our particular funnels built when they're absolutely at their wit's end with that in the first place so to be honest you can never convince these folks to make that change if you're proactively just walking up to them on the street and saying you need to make a change in you dental practice. I know all that eighty percent of dental practices suck and you're probably getting ninety three percent of your referrals from word of mouth and you know your sales process is this because when you talk to dentist right they'll say all my conversion rates are seventy five percent we're amazing my staff this my staff is that, the reality is they aren't right and so the point is is that you have to shift the mindset into again doing things that have already been adopted by other industries years ago right and one of the biggest things was intact right startups for tech is creating a culture of inclusiveness right within the practice and I don't mean all lovey-dovey and getting a little bit blank and I'm talking about making sure that when that dentist comes in and they say sell that forty five thousand you know a dollar procedure in Manhattan right there's an actual like full restorative case that came in at forty five thousand dollar procedure has just been sold right and the dentist is on the white board and they're like oh this is amazing you know and the associates is helping this is what we're gonna make on this procedure or whatever and this is kind of like now I can kind of go and do something that I wanted to do this summer or whatever right receptionist the treatment coordinator you know the hygienist every single person that was involved you know the assistant the associate I was involved in that process did not even make close to what the dentist off of that procedure right and so there has to be a culture of incentives developed and I mean again we've got lots of stories about practice we...

Howard: Well I want to stop one thing because you said Manhattan and I really want to stop you there because I like what I travel around the world whenever he says oh yeah I've been to America I always thought I'm saying I don't tell me it was what would he say because I know it's an only Manhattan they went to the Greater New York dental meeting one time and they think the United States of America is Manhattan which is some freak outlier and when I look at these dentists out there the average American will by thirteen new cars in their lifetime thirteen and the median average price of that car is $33,000 so then I go look at the dentist ninety five percent will never sell one thirty three thousand dollar case in their whole life but within every single city in zip code there's a dentist who only schedules patients Monday through Thursday because Friday is that big case day and they do 30, 40, 50 cases every Friday they got a twenty thirty forty fifty thousand dollar case, it's either all on four it's either we're taking every amalgam everything out redoing it they have endodontists that come from the next county because she needs like three molar root canals and you can't so and he'll have an anesthesiologist. So I'm sitting there in every little town when you say Manhattan they think oh you don't understand dude I'm in Parsons Kansas yeah well in Parsons Kansas they sell 50 thousand dollar f-150 pickup trucks every single day and some people get that $90,000 a new F250 truck so in every one of those poor flyover states that only sells small grains wheat corn Milo they're buying fifty thousand to a hundred thousand trucks and that's why I love Care Credit the most I have no financial connection to these guys I don't know if they advertise with us or not that if you're on care credit the local rep can come by and tell you how much financing all the dentists in your zip code or county or city are doing and every time some dentists are telling me a big story but you just don't understand the economy in Childress Texas it died we're dead and then you pull up Care Credit sight literally wow they're so stuck dentist only a half a mile from your office last year did seven hundred thousand dollars of financing and you didn't do seven thousand and you think it's all it's always everybody's problem but the man in the mirror. It's never that they don't track they don't convert they don't have an office of sales and then and then he tells you at the end oh I don't want to sell well you're doing a damn your job you've met all your goals you ready to sell and you don't congratulations you've met all your goals. So your attitude determines your altitude so you're saying that rock bottom is the best foundation and the guy's calling you have already realized I got a problem it's not getting better so you're saying the people that call you they're already past that and the best foundation the best foundation is rock bottom when you're tired of having the same sales year after year after year you go dental office like okay you've collected seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year and taken to him 175 which is the median mode average in American dentist dental Dentistry for ten years and and and the guy across the street from you is doubling out he's doing a million five he's taking home 350 in the same shithole city that you live in right so are you ready to listen how long do they have to flatline before they're ready to listen.

Shamil: That's the thing right it's like I mean at the end of the day that's why the funnel was developed to begin with right so that you only attract people who are at that aware is, same thing with patients right so exactly what you just said where it's like they're just flatline they're done you know there's stagnant you know it's like they you know they think to try to do in the exact same scene with a patient right that patients been working for the last twenty years if we're in dentures that having able eat an apple it can't eat corn on the cob everything sucks they're just done with it but they've just managed to squeak down enough money to be able to kind of put a little down payment on it and the credits good enough for they and they have a good enough job and pension where they can pay a monthly fee to enjoy the last 20 years of their life writing over 25 years the life eating apples right and that's essentially the the core component of that funnel was attracting and say what the dentist's need to attract patients who are at that it be able to just separate the research phase from I'm kind of ready now. You don't have a choice like there's too many people out there that require our help right if you can't help them all so you need to figure out well who is at the research phase now versus who is kind of willing to help themselves and if they're already spending money they spent money on that like our ideal clinic like we have a buyer profile and every single dentist should have a patient profile on who they want to sell the patient list you're talking earlier and your thoughts earlier completely echo all the tests we've read versus male versus female two very different markets in fact in some markets we don't even pitch to males because we don't care like I mean I be honest like I played hockey and soccer all my life I grew up in come back you know like Canadian kid that grew up playing hockey and soccer doing a slide tackle they took out my two front teeth or whatever and then you know my bottom tooths an implant my top two teeth or crown and veneer and I'm like 43 years old this happened like 20 years ago right 22 years ago. Now I left my left tooth out primarily because I was thought it was cool oh my god I'm missing a tooth and I got it knocked out in the game it was a great story and every what I told him I went up for a header and the guys you know caught me under the chin but that wasn't what it was about right what happened to me was my teeth started to shift right and my dentist goes it's all well I'm good you're being mr. cool guy but now you're 23 years old look at your teeth they're starting to sheesh oh my oh my gosh I gotta do something about this right away what am I gonna do I had to come up with the money within now back yeah I know it sounds like forever it was like 20 years ago right my guy had sent me to referral to the next person right who then Valley is already there for me I'm like gonna trust painless Pete that's what we called him right painless Pete right Dr. Brett and his bucket list was to leave early retired 52 and go ride his motorcycle all over the country right he did that but he would've first to somebody else all he did was general and cosmetic that's it refer somebody else basically drilled the abutment into my jaw and then basically the next person who screwed the implant in right and she did the implants or like three dentists and all them a plastic but ones brain and house now there's no one there's no question that you want to make money in dentistry you've got to start bringing those services in-house. So you know it's really about separating you cannot help everybody you've got to separate people that are researching to buy that implant where some people you know ready to buy now and focus on the ones instead of like driving in a smattering of people that are anywhere from you know free whitening to all on four right only focus on the all on four. So if you focus your all your advertising efforts on people who are just looking for all on for their female as we talked about earlier who really are the ones who are actually taking advantage of you know the admin most clicks come from that that demographic primarily because again they're looking you know to you know you pull out a tooth it's going to cost you know they would not pull it out for a million bucks right so replacing dentures is very important so the sales cycle on that is is is much quicker if you're able to develop empathy trust in that reputation prior to them actually being able to make that decision right.

Howard: I just want to say a couple things I know what they think and I've been talking for 31 years a lot of them are saying well dude I won't do implants and I know that those are the big cases the big cases are dental implant a job well you don't you don't have to do them. I can't tell you how many dentists will say you're in Phoenix well you just go down to Tucson or up north to Flagstaff and started talking to the periodontist and oral surgeons there okay and you'll find out that you know good twenty five percent of them would love to come down one day a month and do the implants in your office where you split the revenue fifty-fifty. It's the same thing but the people who are bringing the service in half does it mean the dentist I mean a dentist can't master Invisalign and implants in molar endo and silver diamine fluoride pediatric dentistry bleaching yeah I'm either just you could do it a hundred years ago but you can't do it today.

Shamil: No they need to master....

Howard: When a doctor tells me well I'm gonna go learn sleep apnea I'm like wow you know sleep apnea just that alone just to stay up on sleep apnea alone would be a major commitment so what are you giving up or you giving up endo or pareo or implant. I mean look at implant hell just bone grafting could be a specialty, so what are you gonna give up, I'm not giving up nothing I'm just gonna be a jack-of-all-trades I'm like man the money like like I look at people who decide they want to place implants and by the time they go to these courses and fly to Dominican Republic and buy the equipment I mean they'll have and then they buy a CB CT they might have spent a quarter million dollars before they brought in one dollar revenue then there's that little business girl across the street she says yeah I'm in Phoenix and I'm on the west side of town and an hour away on the east side of town I found a periodontist so I'm gonna load up all my cases I'm gonna spend all the money that I would have spent in an implant training and and all this crap I'm gonna spend that on a website and marketing and I'm gonna convert these people I'm gonna load them all up and then the lady periodontist from the other side of town is going to come in every other Friday and do all the placement for me I mean it's a business and what I had all ended on this because we're way over time is that look man Ray Kroc is dead he's dead he's 6 feet underground and 40,000 McDonald's get up every day and make a big Mac, Sam Walton is dead and they built 40 new Walmart's a month dude the business is business as business so get the business down thank you so much for coming on the show.

Shamil: Automate delegate develop processes predictable and measurable processes and you'll get consistent results.

Howard: Automate... say that again.

Shamil: Automate delegate so you can get more predictable consistent results right that's it automate delegate develop processes and that gets you more consistent results period all the time that is the only way to do it and that's life.

Howard: So you said automate delegate I want to stop he right there delegate I mean these dentists they will delegate and I keep telling the dentist, dentist you're gonna die yeah I mean what do you Sam Walton didn't delegate and when he died there is no Walmart what it would have Steve Jobs didn't delegate when he died there is no iPhone. I mean how can you not delegate unless you're gonna live forever and you and I tell dentist every year they should plan on working one less hour a week and take me home one more dollar because I'm holding less hours for more money than I already know your promise I mean I know dentists I know Tennessee I mean look at Rick Workman the guy owns 850 dental offices and hasn't seen a patient in two decades.

Shamil: Howard I mean how would you people so member we talked about this a lot a while back - we've got this conversation it's like people spend like 30% of their initial life just training and learning to work then they spend like the next you know 35, 40 years or life just work in their butt off right - what enjoy like ten years of like 15 years of life right if you don't get hit by a bus in between then right. So the point is is like in order to live that semi-retired life they got a delegate like you have no choice if you're gonna scale your business you have to figure out how to delegate and you know budget with funnel process like we're building funnels right we're actually read l a-- gating the sales process the dentist has to actually follow in the early stages away from the dentist because if you were talking more time early I mean dentist aren't gonna put their best foot forward these people every single time right you're gonna sit there explain to me how the engines built in the Ferrari as opposed to telling me I'm good I'm gonna look in the Ferrari as I'm driving down the road right so it's like it has nothing to do with you know doing more it has everything to do with kind of living that kind of semi-retired life that they can live way much longer before them you know then society wants them to you righter society actually deems we should be right a lot of people just work you know they know they gotta worry about we're two jobs and of course you have to do that but the other day now there is the ability especially with you know being able to scale digitally and scale online and develop a lot of content at very low cost ready for a lot of these folks. It's very easy to delegate you know the most Fortin parts of your sales cycles and most important parts of your actual you hire an associate delegate to them and then develop a specific revenue stream that just build you know so that as soon as you start doing that you are now as scaling your time and I should living semi-retirement a lot earlier in your life then you should be right as opposed to just working that sort of costs at four or five day when you can tell you you could die right.

Howard: His website is and thank you so much for coming on the show today buddy.

Shamil: My pleasure thanks, I've been honored privilege. 



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