Enjoying over 30 years in the industry, dentistry is her passion. Jodie utilized Trojan’s Benefit Service and Collection Services in the dental office for 20 years. Jodie was a recipient of 1-800-DENTIST referrals, and became a master at converting referrals into patients of record making her an excellent choice when asked to join as a 1-800-DENTIST Member Consultant. Recruited to the executive team as Manager of Practice Development, Jodie joined Trojan Professional Services in 2006. Jodie created Trojan’s Consultant Relations program which implements ways to promote consultants and ensures a long-lasting the triangle of success between the dental consultant, their client and Trojan. She contributes creatively to the sales and marketing aspects of the company. Jodie reimagined Trojan’s Training Department and was instrumental in the development of Trojan’s state of the art Dentifi automated Insurance Verification programs. She loves to go RV’g with her husband and hosting all the family gatherings!
VIDEO - DUwHF #994 - Jodie Pearson
AUDIO - DUwHF #994 - Jodie Pearson
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Howard: It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Jodie Pearson, Manager of Practice Development and Consultant Relations with Trojan Professional Services and member of the Academy of Dental Management. She's the manager of Practice Development Consultant Relations and Academy of Management consulting member. Enjoying over thirty years in the industry, dentistry is her passion. Jodie utilized Trojan's Benefit Service and Collection Services in the dental office for twenty years. She was a recipient of the 1-800-DENTIST referrals, and became a master at converting referrals into patients of record making her an excellent choice when asked to join as a 1-800-DENTIST Member Consultant. Recruited to the executive team as Manager of Practice Development, Jodie joined Trojan Professional Services in 2006. She created Trojan's Consultant Relations program which implements ways to promote consultants and ensure a long-lasting the triangle of success between the dental consultant, their client and Trojan. She contributes creatively to the sales and marketing aspects of the company. Jodie re-imagined Trojan's Training Department and was instrumental in the development of Trojan's state of the art Dentifi automated Insurance Verification program. She loves to go RVing with her husband and hosting all the family gatherings.
Howard: What percent of dental offices still call every single insurance?
Jodie: Oh my gosh. A ton. In fact, I have a survey that I took of about a hundred clients and I'll tell you what the results of that is. To be honest, 78% of offices are verifying eligibility every day. 9% do it every six months and about 4% do it once a year.
Howard: Say those numbers one more time?
Jodie: Yes. How often do offices verify benefits and eligibility? So we had 78% are doing it every day, 9% every six months, 4% once a year, and then 9% is other. And how many hours a day are they spending on this task? 48% said they're spending an average of two hours a day. That's a lot of time. 31% said about an hour a day. 8% said they're spending three hours a day on verification. And 13% said that they're spending more than three hours a day.
Howard: My God. Now, tell my viewers if they don't know what Trojan Professional Services is, what is Trojan?
Jodie: Okay. Trojan was founded in 1976, Howard, with the main idea knowing that offices are spending time dealing with insurance verification so that they can figure out their patient's copay at the time of service. So, Charlie Kidd founded Trojan. He's a USC grad in 1976, he was a CPA also, and he decided that that was something that needed to be outsourced. So Trojan started to research dental benefits for the practices and then send the dental benefits for those employer group benefits to the practice and they could have it on record.
Howard: So, he was a dentist and a CPA?
Jodie: No, he was not a dentist, he was a CPA and he did start to do consulting for dental practices. And one of the things that he learned along the way was how much time was being spent, even back then, on dealing with insurance verification and benefits and things like that.
Howard: Well, that was why so many people are upset with the federal United States healthcare system because they think 30% of the cost is just admin work.
Jodie: It's definitely a lot of admin work spent on that.
Howard: I think it's even crazier that Steve Jobs came out with a smartphone in 2007 and here it is 2018, it's been eleven years, and you would think they would just walk in and have an insurance app with a scan, and you'd scan it and say, "Oh, you're Jodie Pearson, and here's your benefits". I mean, how could Delta Dental not make one innovation with the smartphone, which is probably the greatest technological advancement in our lifetime.
Jodie: Absolutely. Well, I don't know what their focus is, but apparently it's on making money.
Howard: Yeah. And they are a nonprofit.
Jodie: There you go.
Howard: Yeah. I mean, it's just crazy and it's also frustrating. Like, every time, you go to... I had four boys, so I was in the emergency room at least once a month for a decade. And every time you go in there, you start from A to Z. "Your name?" "What do you mean my name? I was here a month ago." It's just crazy.
Howard: So, does Charlie Kidd still own the whole thing?
Jodie: His wife does. Charlie Kidd passed a while back. So, Ingrid Kidd-Goldfarb, she still owns the company.
Howard: Nice. So how much does it cost? How do my homies start using this?
Jodie: You know what? There's a lot of options, Howard, which is something that I'm really proud to say. One of the things I'm very proud about Trojan, is that we don't just sell anything to anybody. One of the things that we do is we find out exactly what they need, what do we have that's going to fit into their practice. So, it can range anywhere from $20 a month for a desktop eligibility program, which is super, super easy and fun to use. There's no contract to that. It's about a hundred and forty-nine bucks to set it up. Super easy. Anybody can have that anywhere in the country. And then we have our benefits services, which is where we have people here that do the labor and actually get a breakdown of the benefits. We ask over eighty questions to get that breakdown, it is employer group benefits, and then we can load that onto a database. And once it's loaded onto the database... You know, Trojan started in '76. That's before computers, cell phones, fax machines or anything like that. So when the practice management systems were born, they came to Trojan, Dentrix, Eaglesoft, SoftDent and so forth and said, "Hey, we want to write an integration so that your benefits can click into our coverage tables". So that would be called the benefit services piece. And, there's a different variety of costs to that. And that's something that we can certainly go over, offices, when they give us a call.
Howard: I know you can't answer this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway because it is dentistry uncensored.
Jodie: Yes, sure.
Howard: Podcasters, they're kids. I mean, you and I have been in dentistry longer than the average age of the person listening right now. A quarter of them are still in dental school. The rest are all under thirty. If you were working at corporate somewhere and you were going to set up your own office. You worked with all the practice management systems. What's your low hanging fruit on that one?
Jodie: Oh Gosh. Well, that would not be a Trojan recommendation necessarily. That would be me personally. And I used Dentrix in the dental office. As far as the integration of the Trojan benefits is concerned... Well, Howard, I don't know how to answer that. The reason is because I haven't actually looked at all of the single practice management systems. But you've got to be able to make sure that what you want from a practice management system is what you're going to get. So as far as reports and being able to find out what your numbers are. That's going to be a big part of how you want to run your business and figure out exactly where you're headed, where you've been. So I think reporting, however the practice management system provides that piece, is really important. Of course, for me, integration with Trojan benefits is a big deal and we integrate with a ton of practice management systems. But there's a lot of them out there. You just got to take a look and see what fits with what you want.
Howard: Well, Dentrix has the largest market share, no doubt about it.
Jodie: It does.
Howard: Done by Henry Schein.
Jodie: No doubt about it.
Howard: The number two is Eaglesoft. I just want to explain one thing to the kids first. That is, the number one cause of bankruptcy in the United States is not that your business is bad or going out of business. You actually have a profitable business and you run out of cash. So, the CPA gives you three boards, it gives you a balance sheet, what balance your asset balances with the liability over to the equity of (unclear? 08:29). And then there's the statement of cash flow, which every dentist I know that's been practising thirty years of CPS, never even given them a statement of cash flow. And then you have a P&L, a statement of income, which is basically just for third party tax collectors like the IRS and if you're publicly traded the SEC.
Howard: But back to that cash flow. Here's how you got to understand this. If your dental office takes a dollar a month to run and your patients don't pay you for ninety days, then you have to have $3 of cash flow to exist until you get paid. And the number one cause of bankruptcy is, they had all these invoices out, they had all these account receivables and most of them were good and we're going to come in. But you couldn't pay your help, your rent, your mortgage, your equipment, your computer. You couldn't pay your bills until you got paid. And they really prey on young dentists because they know they don't understand this. When you go to a dentist who's forty, fifty or sixty, payment is at time of service...
Howard: And our receptionist submits the insurance claim when you check out. But the young dentists, they'll say, "Well, can you bill me?" And then you'll bill and they don't pay for thirty, sixty, ninety days, or they'll sit there and bill the insurance on Fridays. So, what's the difference? Does this speed up payment?
Jodie: Absolutely Howard. And what you're talking about here is a skilled business office person who knows his or her staff and can figure out the patient's co-payment estimate at the time of diagnosis, and set up the payment arrangement, or train the patient that they're going to be asked for the payment in full, whatever their portion is, when they come back for that appointment. So a crucial question is number one, this is what we estimate your co-payment to be. Number two, we'd like for you to take care of that on the day we start your treatment. When you ask that question, it then opens the door for the patient to say, "Can I make payments?", or "Sure, that's fine. Do you take a credit card payment?" So then the conversation about financial arrangements starts right then and there. And you want to always have some type of payment arrangement available to you, whether it's CareCredit or Lending Club or some sort of automatic credit card payment monthly, or something like that. As long as it's something that you agree upon with the patient. It has to be all discussed at the time of diagnosis before they walk out the door.
Jodie: Then your notes have to be really well put in the practice management system or wherever you're making your notes. So that, if I'm not there the day the patient comes in, anybody who's checking that patient out will know exactly what to do, how much money to ask for and so forth. And so it is critical that these steps are all lined up. And when you talk about Trojan, that's what Trojan is all about. It's helping the office know how to estimate those benefits, even if the office is a preferred provider with any carriers. If that practice, and this is up to the practice and the consultants that the practices may consult with, if you have your PPO fee schedules in the practice management system, you can attach the fee schedule to the patient, you attach your Trojan benefit plan. And when you do your treatment plan, you have an estimate based upon those two pieces of information.
Howard: You know, Dentaltown has four hundred and eleven online CE courses that are coming up on a million views. We have everything: root canals, fillings, crowns. But we don't have one single course to teach these guys how to present treatment and pay.
Jodie: Yeah, I have that. I need to get involved in that then Howard.
Howard: Yeah. I mean, it's so important to me. These kids listening to you right now, they think the secret of life is to find the best bonding agent, the best bone grafting material. And their number one question is which implant to use.
Jodie: Yeah, but how do you talk to your patient when they're checking out and they need something? I actually have a webinar that I did for Trojan on 'Where in the world does case acceptance begin and end?' It is all the steps from the very first phone call to the time that the patient has finished with their treatment. So it's a great piece that I can put on Dentaltown somehow.
Howard: How long is it?
Jodie: It's about an hour and a half.
Howard: Nice. Yeah. I'm howard@Dentaltown.com and the guy in charge of online CE is Howard Goldstein. So, he's hogo. So email her, me and hogo. But email@example.com and firstname.lastname@example.org. Because it's just so important. I mean, you can't do any of these big, sexy, exciting cases unless you can convince the patient to get it and to pay for it. And what percentage of dentists do you think, just in their nature and their gut, do not like to talk money?
Jodie: They don't. And if they do, we kind of get mad at them at the front office. If we know what we're doing in the front, we don't want them to talk about it to be honest. I used to work for Dr. Wallace and he used to bring the patient up to the front office and he'd say, "I just do fix the teeth around here, Jody is my insurance guru." And then I would say "Dr Wallace, please don't call me names in front of the patient. That's not very nice." So we had a lot of fun, but yeah, I'm the one that would figure it out based upon and I relied very heavily on Trojan's benefits to be able to present that treatment on the spot. My patient comes out of the hygiene room. It needs a night guard. I can look at the benefit plan right now and say "You have coverage or not". So it was very, very helpful to have that piece. You don't want to put your patient off. You don't want to have to say, "Well, let me check into it and call you back". You want to be able to have all of those things prepared in advance and that's something that we teach here at Trojan. When we train people how to use the services, we train them how to have all these ducks in a row before the patient even arrives to the office.
Howard: It's everything. So, why do you say that case acceptance doesn't start in the back office? Why do you say it starts up front?
Jodie: You know Howard, that very first phone call can make or break everything. And the word of mouth referral is probably the easiest appointment that you can make. That word of mouth referral, they already know who you are. They trust you because someone said great things about you. So that patient is probably calling to say, "Oh, I was referred by John Smith and I want to make an appointment". That one's pretty simple to do. But then you have your media generated referrals, Howard. And this is something that I really learned from my previous employer and also from a 1-800-DENTIST, teaching offices how to convert those media generated referrals into patients of record. It is a huge deal. You can spend all kinds of money on marketing, but if you don't have the right skill set to get that person to walk in the door, you're never going to stand a chance.
Jodie: So, it does begin with that first phone call. Then when the receptionist walks out into the reception room, are they stuck to the door knob, are they just saying "John?" Or are they coming out and say, "Hey John, my name is Jodie. I'd like to invite you back and introduce you to Dr. Smith." What is the approach and the demeanour of every single person in the office? So these are some things that I do cover in my webinar, which you know, sometimes people don't think about all these little details, but every single thing matters. You can give a little tour of your office. How does that set your office apart from the rest? Who else is doing that in the world? So, we want to always try to go the extra mile. Then, we get into let's say, the doctor meets the patient and recommends an FMX. The dental assistant can actually, while they're looking in the mouth and they're taking an X-ray, they can mention something that they see. They can say something like, "Oh, I noticed Mr Smith that the tooth on the upper right is broken. Has that been hurting you yet?" Just plant little seeds along the way. Everybody can participate in case acceptance. Absolutely.
Howard: So, what is your webinar called? Treatment plan?
Jodie: It's called, 'Where in the world does case acceptance begin and end'.
Howard: That is so nice. I tell everybody, the number one business I would not go into in dentistry would be marketing for a dental office for new patients, because you can go out there and get an A, and deliver a hundred phone calls to their office and they'll never know that. They will just see, "Oh, I only had three new patients". "Well, I can't help it that your receptionist couldn't convert ninety-seven out of a hundred." And then you ask them some more questions like, "Well, how many incoming calls do you have a month?" They don't know. "How many calls go to voicemail?" They don't know. When you're in any other business, when the phone rings, it's inbound sales. Then when you call out it's outbound sales. They're the highest paid people in the business and they come in with suits and ties on and they're the six finger people. And then the people in the back of the factory work in the machine press and all that stuff, makes half or a third of that amount. In dentistry it's completely opposite. They don't train anybody up front. They have no data. I mean, you see some dentists getting sophisticated, say, "If you're a new patient, call this number, if you're an existing patient, call that number". Just to try to get them to somehow realize that this is an incoming sales bound call. And that lady, that person, can't spend the time entering that call because she's spending two hours a day verifying insurance claims.
Jodie: That's right Howard. That's exactly right. And you know, speaking of that, I have another figure for you. When we asked the same offices, "If you had more time, what would you choose to do that would have the biggest impact on the practice?" And actually, when we do trainings here at Trojan, that's one of the questions that we ask our clients. We ask them, "What would you do with that extra time?" And Howard, believe it or not, I do have a very hard time getting them to be specific. "Oh my gosh, I have so many things I could do." Okay. Then I have to ask them again, "But what would you do that would have the biggest impact on the practice?" Then I try to get them to say things like reactivation or marketing or things like that. So here are the statistics on that. 44% of them said reactivation, 35% said marketing, 13% said insurance tracking and collections and 8% said other. So you can imagine for every minute that Trojan can save them, they can do something that will generate revenue for the business. That's the whole bottom line right there.
Howard: When you talk about reactivation, I mean, that's outbound sales in any business.
Jodie: It is.
Howard: But in a dental office, they don't like to call them customers or anything like that. And then when you go into those telemarketing companies, they have massive turnover because you have to have a personality for it. You have to see it as a challenge. I mean, it's got to be that kid who, when they were in high school working at Applebee's, when they had a bonus program where if you upgraded the standard tea to a flavored tea, the kid would get a buck. I mean, they have to like that game theory. They have to like it, they have to like the challenge. And the dentists always hire someone exactly like them. So you know, he lived in the library for a year, so he always hires the librarian and then the librarian is up there answering the phone and she probably prefers doing insurance verification or task...
Jodie: Right, exactly.
Howard: Because it's non-confrontational.
Jodie: You're right Howard.
Howard: So you don't have to talk to a human.
Jodie: You're right. You definitely have to have the right people on the bus. There's no question about it. And not only that, there's a lot of training places where you can get trained now in the world, especially for front office. And I will go ahead and mention Laura Hatch. She is a Trojan client and she has online classes or in-person classes, seminars and all of that, that actually teach verbal skills and ways to say things to patients to get them to do what we want them to do. Our job in the office, every one of us, the dentists, the hygienists, everyone, our job is to teach and train our clients to do our patients what they need to do. So what can we say to the patient that will get them to hear us? What words are we using that will get them to pay attention? So if I'm making an appointment, Howard, and I'm scheduling an hour and a half for a crown prep, for example, am I just going to say, "Okay, the doctor has Tuesday at three. Great. We'll see you then." Or am I going to say something like this? "Howard, we've just reserved an hour and a half, especially for you. We will give you our undivided attention. We never double book, so you'll be our special patient for that amount of time. We'd like for you to do everything you can to keep this appointment. Okay, Howard, sound good?" So, that's a little bit of something extra that the patient may be able to hear that will get them to take this appointment seriously.
Jodie: So, what does that relate to? That relates to reduction in no shows. So we want people to hear if we're calling to reactivate someone if they need treatment, first thing I want to do is, I want to make sure that I know what's wrong with that tooth. If I don't know what's wrong with it, if I don't read X-rays and I don't know what's wrong with the tooth, but I'm going to be the one calling the patient, you bet I'm going to go ask Dr. Smith "What's wrong with this tooth?" And then I'm going to come back to the phone. I'm going to say, "Howard, Dr. Smith asked me to give you a call. He handed me your chart today. He asked me to give you a call. He said he's concerned that he hasn't seen you since this was diagnosed. He wanted me to remind you that this tooth is cracked on the side." So, I'm able to use what I call those buzzwords in order to hopefully get you to hear what I'm trying to say. "And also Howard, if you don't have that done, Dr. Smith said that these are some things that can happen as a result. So, we just want you to get in here as soon as possible. We have an opening this Friday at ten or two. Which one sounds good to you?" So you're taking control, you're educating the patient, you're speaking on behalf of the doctor. Those are things that can get better results.
Howard: Laura Hatch is totally amazing. She's down by you. She's in San Diego.
Howard: She was on podcast number two hundred and thirty-five.
Jodie: She was, I saw it.
Howard: And eight hundred and thirty-three. You're going to be almost a thousand.
Jodie: Do I get a prize if I'm a thousand?
Howard: You do, you win the prize. So you worked in a dental office for twenty years, then you worked for 1-800-DENTIST for how long?
Jodie: I worked for them for eight years. I worked for Fred Joyal.
Howard: I love Fred.
Jodie: I do too. Great guy.
Howard: So, what were your takeaways from 1-800 dental?
Jodie: Oh my goodness. First of all, what I realized in dealing with helping those clients is that they weren't really tracking their return on investment. Howard this was huge. What I learned mostly is that people tend to focus on the negative rather than the positive. So I would be confronted by offices saying things like, "Well, these patients aren't showing up", or "You're just sending us people that want to know how much". Yeah, these are people that are actually maybe afraid to go to the dentist. They haven't been in a long time. They're embarrassed to ask their friends who they go to. So they're going through a marketing source like 1-800-DENTIST and when we get the call from immediate generated referral, and I don't care if it's 1-800-DENTIST or a postcard or whatever it is, one of the things that they're going to ask you is "How much do you charge?"
Jodie: And a lot of times offices don't really know how to handle that question because we know we're not supposed to really quote fees. They can hang up, they can call somebody else and find it cheaper somewhere else. But one of the biggest takeaways that I learned from 1-800-DENTIST was a no charge evaluation. And the doctor that I worked for for 15 years, he was actually a member from account number 27 Howard. He joined 1-800-DENTIST right out the gate and he latched onto the no charge evaluation. And let me tell you, I worked in a couple of different offices. The first office that I worked in, I was required to quote a fee for their first visit. When I came to work for Dr. Prince in Los Alamitos, he said, "Jodie, just tell him to come in. We'll check that tooth for free".
Jodie: So, that was in a certain situation, not necessarily for a cleaning or something like that. But I learned to say things like, "Well, there are a lot of different types of cleanings, Howard, why don't you come on in. We'll do a no-charge evaluation. You and the doctor will decide together exactly what you need. You'll make that decision together and we'll go from there. We'll go from there and we won't charge you for that. Let's have you come on in, meet the team, see our office." And that's like a 10 minute, "Hello, how are you?" Take a look in their mouth, do a cursory. So these are things that I learned from 1-800-DENTIST that my employer already supported. And I was able to get people to walk in the door. If you can't get that person to walk in the door, nothing's going to happen.
Jodie: So once they come in, and this is in my webinar, once they come in, I go through the steps on how to handle that actual visit itself. You're going to convert that person into having a FMX. And this is something, the wording, the verbal skills, I did learn that as a consultant through 1-800-DENTIST and I just used it every single time and it was a great, great source. I felt happier as a front office person. As an office manager. I felt happier because I had more success. I had people actually coming in instead of saying, "Okay great, thanks for the price, I'll call you back". So there is some definite strategies that you can put into play.
Jodie: But they weren't measuring their return on investment and they're focused on the negative. "Hey, what about the patient that did come in? How much did you get? What production did you get from that patient? Did you ask for a referral from that patient? Do you have secondary and tertiary referrals from that patient?" So that was something I found was sorely lacking in the dental offices. They weren't really tracking the return on investment and once we got them to do that, it was kind of an aha moment, "Oh my gosh, I see what's happening here. Even though these people didn't show, we got these people in and this was the result." So the return on investment could be there.
Howard: The one thing that every dental consultant has in common is, they all say, the first day they go there and they observe and on the first day when they observed, no one's ever witnessed anyone asking for a referral. I mean, that is just a universal thing. So, it's got to be some hard wired thing in our homosapien skull.
Jodie: It is, you know, people are shy. I've heard so many things, because that's one of the things that I would teach in 1-800-DENTIST and also in my practices, word of mouth is the best way to go. You got to ask people because Howard, when a patient is in the office, they can be nervous. They can be a nervous not only about dentistry, but how much is this going to cost me? They're very, very self absorbed and they don't have a chance to think outside of themselves unless you ask them to. So at the end of my appointment, I'm powered. I'm going to make your appointment. Talk about your payment arrangement. Everything is good, give me your appointment card or however you do that. And then I'm going to say, "Howard, if you know anybody that needs our help, would you let me know? We love to help new patients. In fact, here's my card and you can tell them to call me directly and I promise to take good care of them for you."
Jodie: So, what is that telling the patient? It's such an easy way to ask for a referral. It's non-threatening. Plus, you're promising that you'll take care of them personally so they won't be embarrassed or what have you. But, what I did experience through talking with clients when I was with 1-800-DENTIST, "Well, we don't want to sound desperate". "Well, I don't want to bother them." "I don't feel comfortable asking for referrals." I heard all of those things all the time. So you're right. They just need to be trained and practice it and learn to feel comfortable about it. And of course, Howard, you're never going to ask a patient who often no-shows and doesn't pay their bill. You're not going to ask them for referral probably. Right?
Howard: Well, I've been lecturing for thirty years. I mean, every single dentist you say "Do you have a card?" What percentage "Oh, no, I don't have a card". The first thing I'm thinking like, "Dude, you don't have a card". I mean, how do you not have them in your wallet at all times? Same thing with the staff. I always had business cards for the staff because it might only come up, you know, when she's out playing softball or whatever. And then you need to ask your staff, like when they're in the break room and they come in and they're putting their purse away, I say, "How many business cards you have in there? How many? Show me. Show me right now and keep them filled."
Jodie: Something that you can talk about in your morning huddle as well. "Hey, who's on the schedule that we're going to ask for referral? Who's going to ask?" So, if you have a team of people that love to do that, and I created competition in my office. We had competition where if we ask for referrals and the card came back to the office, we would go ahead and draw and have a little friendly competition. And I don't want to brag, but I was mostly the winner of that. It was just something I really enjoyed doing, I had fun doing. But yes, definitely in your morning huddle, "Who's going to be asking for the referral?" "Well, I like, I loved Mary. I'm going to talk to her." So that might be the dental assistant or the hygienists might be the one because you don't want to have everybody on board asking the same person for a referral. So that's a great thing to have on your agenda for the morning huddle.
Howard: Yeah, and another thing that's so different than when I got out of school thirty years ago. I mean, dentistry is a communicable disease. I mean, these babies are born with these bugs and so many dental offices, the hygienists is seeing spouses all day long and we've never seen their other spouse for years and years and years. And it's like, I can't treat your periodontal disease if you're making out every night with some guy who has six, seven millimeter pockets. And when they're pregnant. I can't have grandpa coming in there with a gum disease, kissing newborn baby on the mouth. I mean, once you started realizing it's a herd disease, I mean, that's all they talked about in vaccinations to. You're trying to clear out a disease for an entire herd of cattle or a herd of people and they're in this household and they're sharing utensils and they're kissing each other and all these things. So, I mean, it's just so important to get the whole family in there.
Jodie: Yeah, it is.
Howard: Because it'll be a routine fungal. Just whenever anybody's making an appointment. "Now, have we seen everybody in the family?"
Howard: I mean, you're not born with streptococcus mutans. You're not born with (unclear? 31:29). You're not born with HPV. You're not born with any of this stuff. And another thing on these television shows where you see these two year old kids, they make the news and they're in a hospital with IV sedation and being put to sleep for all these pulpotomies. But the media never asks, "Well, why does a two-year-old need to be put to sleep and need a half dozen root canals and pulpotomies and chrome-steel crowns?" I mean, I've never even met the family, but I can tell you there's just rampant decay with somebody in that house, whether it's grandma, babysitter, mom, dad, this kid doesn't have a place to hide. So what is the difference between Trojan online and Dentifi?
Jodie: Trojan benefit services is where we will get you the breakdown of benefits they can integrate into the coverage table. Now, Dentifi takes it a step further than that. It actually pulls from the appointment book, the patient's name, date of birth and social, and the name of the carrier. And it submits eligibility automatically to the carriers. We have about a hundred and sixty-five carriers on board that do participate with us. Not all of them do, but we have a ton and we have enough to satisfy them. We can also add carriers sometimes if they need it. We've added Medicaid's and things like that for particular states on their request. So Dentifi is more of automation. It's going to automate eligibility nine days in advance for you. The most fun thing about that for me, Howard, is that when you go into Dentifi, it's going to be a website of your very own. You'll open it every morning and you'll be able to see nine days in advance if your patient still has the same insurance they had last time.
Jodie: So, how does that help? Offices that are very busy, they try to say to their patients "Do you have new insurance? Is your insurance still the same?" Those are on the spot face to face questions. We're not really in the habit of asking in advance. When scheduling or confirming maybe, but when they walk in we might ask that question and then the patient says "Yes", but maybe they don't remember that the insurance changed. This automated process is definitely going to tell you if they're active or not. So, if the patient is no longer active, you get to call the patient seven days ahead of time. And why is that so magical? Because what I'm going to do, Howard, I'm going to call Mrs Jones and leave a message and she's not going to call me back. Okay, she's busy. She has other things to do. So I have a seven day window now, maybe nine or six or five, whatever day that I'm on, I have a window of time to actually get ahold of that patient, find out what new insurance she has, submit it for eligibility. If I have the Trojan benefit services, I can find the plan or have Trojan research it for me. Have it linked to the coverage table. All that can happen before the patient walks in the door.
Jodie: So now, instead of dealing with this, you know when a person says, "I have new insurance", your whole world stops. You have to figure it all out right then and there, and you want to make sure that that's done before the patients checked out so that you can go ahead and give him their co-pay estimate. So Dentifi is automation in the Trojan database. You do need to look up the plans by employer name or by policy number. This is something that we will also do for you if you have Dentifi and if you have the benefit services. Howard, benefit services, we're not going to sell it to anybody anywhere in the United States. And the reason is because we have to have a robust database for that office. And that means we'd have to sell things in every single city in the country and that's not necessarily possible. So we're going to let the client know if we have a great database for you or not. If we do, great, we're going to offer benefit services for you. If we don't, we're going to offer you Dentifi automation or we're going to offer you the desktop eligibility program, or maybe you need collections, which is available in twenty-one states.
Jodie: So, the other thing about Dentifi, Howard, is that we can actually get carrier faxes for the office. So, if you have the holy grail of Dentifi, you could have potentially three things, automated eligibility, a Trojan benefit plan that links to your coverage table and a fax from the carrier. So, our CEO, Mark Dunn, wonderful, brilliant person, says to me, "Jodie, what else can we do for our clients?" So, we started with the automated eligibility piece. He said, "What else can we do?" "Oh, well, let's see if we can find the Trojan benefit plan." So that was step two. "What else can we do?" "Hey, let's go get the carrier fax if they need it. So all these things are displayed in the Dentifi.com website for the client.
Howard: Nice. Now is this purely a United States play?
Jodie: Yeah, it is.
Howard: So, it's only the United States?
Howard: And how successful is Trojan? I mean, how many offices participate with you?
Jodie: We have about five thousand clients.
Howard: Wow. Five thousand? All fifty States?
Jodie: And growing. Let me tell you, I mean, I'm in charge of the training here at Trojan and I'm in the position where I'm going to need to hire more trainers or in a position where we need to hire more sales reps. So, I mean, we've been in business for a long time, but this Dentifi is really taking off.
Howard: You've been in business forty-two years.
Jodie: Forty-two years Howard.
Howard: That is amazing. But back to the staff. The dentist, eight years of college, specialists maybe twelve, the hygienist, four years of college, a lot of the assistants do a year dental assisting program. The receptionist, she's basically hired off the street.
Howard: I mean, it's the most undereducated, undertrained person in the business team. Again, if it was any other small business in America, it was just your standard small business doing one to two million a year, the owner taking home three fifty or whatever, that person answering the phone, inbound sales, calling out outbound sales, highest trained, highest paid, most carefully selected person. And in dentistry it's nonchalant, "Oh, she's nice". She's nice because she didn't say anything.
Howard: She came there and smiled and she all looked appropriate. What training do you recommend for these people? And when you talk about verbal skills, you talked about using discernment versus the knee-jerk reaction, about getting patients to comply or do what they should do, like a make and keep up payments. How do you educate these people?
Jodie: Well, here's what happened to me, Howard, because I came out of the medical office into dental from scratch. So I didn't know anything. I didn't know what the tooth numbers were, the surfaces or anything like that. But fortunately for me, Howard, the dentist that I worked for invested in my education. I was in that particular office for four years and I went to every seminar under the sun that we could think of at the time. I've even went with the hygienist to the soft tissue management seminars for practice management systems. We had cassette tapes from Linda Miles that I learned from. We had her books.
Jodie: So, I think it starts with the dentist looking for seminars that that dentist knows would benefit the practice. What's needed? How can I support my front office and every team member in the office to learn more about what they're doing? And that's where it really starts. So you just have to research what's going on in the world, what seminars and things like that are available. And our clients here at Trojan, I have a consultant relations program here that I created for Trojan and so I ask consultants to send me their flyers, their links to seminars that they're putting on in various parts of the world or the states or webinars. And we post those in the client's account, so they can actually go in and say, "You know what? I'm really interested in learning more about social media", and they can sign up for these seminars and webinars if they want to.
Jodie: So, it's definitely all about educating, or getting a dental consultant onboard. Dental consultants can come in and actually help the person one on one, face to face and help them grow and monitor that and support them and things like that. So, it is definitely something that has to come from the top down, where the dentist is willing to make an investment and invest in that individual.
Howard: So, you specialize in working with these consultants, right?
Jodie: I do.
Howard: How many consultants do you work with?
Jodie: Well, all of the ones in the academy. Charlie Kidd, the founder of Trojan, actually founded the Academy of Dental Management Consultants, because he saw...
Howard: The American Academy of Dental...
Jodie: Dental Management Consultants. Academy of Dental Management Consultants. So Charlie saw that dental consultants needed to come together and network together and help one another and learn from one another. He recognized that thirty years ago and he founded that organization. We just celebrated our thirtieth year last year. It was a great time. We had a great time. Ingrid, the owner came and spoke for the group. She told us how she met Charlie, how the idea of Trojan came to be, how the academy came to be, you know, the brainchild, how that developed. So any consultant that wants to connect with me, what I do is I show them our products so that they can know, if their office has a need in that area, they can go ahead and refer them to me directly. Now we have a sales team here at Trojan. I'm not a part of the sales team. I don't get any kickbacks or anything like that. This is just my passion where I want to be available to the consultant. They can give their client my personal information to contact me directly. I will contact the client and I will be their personal consultant.
Jodie: So, that's what I talked about in my bio, how I want to create a triangle of success between the client, the consultant and Trojan. So if I need to refer them out to sales that's fine, but then at the end I will actually be the personal trainer for the consultant's client. So I will follow this client all the way through and they will always have my number to follow up with. Now as far as promoting the consultants, not every consultant needs help being promoted, but we're here to do what we can. We don't recommend any specific consultant necessarily, but we want people to know about them. So, if they do send us their information, we'll put it on our Facebook page. We'll put it in our 'ask the consultant', we'll do whatever we can to let people know that they're available to help.
Howard: You have these big brand names, these big national consultants, but oftentimes the best ones are under the radar that only focus on like one state. Different states have very different unique needs, or it's pattern recognition. You might not have all the available data, but you know in your little region, the dentist that take these PPO's have very high overhead. So, you get a feel since you're dealing in an imperfect world. But if one of my homeys wanted to get a name of a dental consultant, would you recommend one near them or do you like the big national brand names?
Jodie: We don't actually recommend anyone in particular, but we can refer them to the academy and they can go ahead and look to see....
Howard: So, I'm on the website. How do I see a list of the consultants? I mean, I go to...?
Jodie: I think you can go to member search, but then you would have to have the name of someone... You know, I can find out more about that for you, Howard.
Howard: And maybe, if you got a list of all their names and phone and email, I'll post it on Dentaltown.
Howard: Because one of my missions is to try and be a leader to help these kids pay off $350,000 student loans. They're naturally attracted to doing surgery with their hands and the operatory or they wouldn't have signed up to go to dental school. I don't imagine veterinarians need a bunch of courses on how to love a cat or a dog. I'm pretty sure they already decided that. So, they love to do surgery with their hands and operatory, and so they're quick to buy a laser, CAD/CAM, CBCT and fly all around the world to all these institutes. And then you ask them any single economic questions like "How many incoming calls did you have this month?" "What does it compared to last year?" "What is your return on equity, return asset?" "What is your profit margin?" Your hygienist is there to clean, examine and bite wings. She does this eight times a day. Did she just make $8.17 after taxes or did you lose twenty bucks? They don't know any of that.
Jodie: They don't know. Right.
Howard: In the pattern recognition I've seen, thirty years of doing this, is that every dentist who got into consultants and had a different one every five years, I mean, all the friends that are my age that are in their fifties and sixties, hell, if you say "Have you had a dental consultant?", it's like "A consultant?". They've had a half dozen. They say "I've never had a consultant that came in that if I gave him a dollar in this year I didn't get that dollar back and then more before the end of the year". So, if you've got a complete list, I could, or you could post on Dentaltown. You should post it. You just say "I just did a podcast with Howard and he said 'Post a list of consultants'". It's the number one return on investment.
Howard: And you know how the dentist, how she's shy to ask for referrals because she doesn't want to look desperate or she thinks it's weird or whatever. I often wonder if that's what holds people back from getting consultants because the shame of coming in and realizing...
Jodie: Yeah, it's an admission that you need help.
Howard: Yeah. I don't think doctors, physicians, dentists, lawyers, are just the type of person that likes to say, "Oh, I flunked my test. I need help. I need a math tutor." You know what I mean?
Jodie: That's a good point. Very good point.
Howard: And they always say, "Just get humble. Get humble."
Howard: "Quit worrying...."
Jodie: Ask for help.
Howard: "About what everyone things. Raise your hand, ask for help."
Howard: And there's so much amazing good help. And again, I say this, when I got out of school thirty years ago, you could make a lot of dumb mistakes and still be successful, but the landscape is totally changed. I mean, if you're coming out of school $350,000 in debt, or I saw a kid on the podcast today, five hundred and fifty. Man, you got $550,000 in student loans. You can't make very many more mistakes. I mean, got to hit the ground running and learning all this business and cash flow and marketing and converting and all that stuff.
Jodie: And you know Howard, that reminds me. Internal marketing is such, I think it's very underrated and very underutilized. Internal marketing. So, we're always talking about "I need more new patients. I need more new patients, I more new..." Yes, when you have a new patient, there's a chance that there's a lot of restorative needs that are going to be there, but you have all these charts on the shelf already, all this unscheduled treatment. These are people that already have met you. They already know you, they already know your team and they just need to be inspired. They just need to be inspired and that's one of the words that I used to use when I would call a patient to inspire. "I'm calling to inspire you, Howard. We diagnosed you in January and we haven't seen you. Doctor asked me to give you a call." So they, "Oh, I've been meaning to call you". If you're a person that regularly reaches out and does that type of a phone call, that outbound marketing call, you will be surprised how many people say, "Oh, I've been meaning to call you". Get out there and talk to people. And that's just people that already know you.
Howard: So, you're driving to work right now. That's what everybody tells me. Shoot me an email, email@example.com, and tell me where you live, how old you are. I like to know who's listening in and all that stuff. But imagine that you're driving to work right now and you don't even know how many outbound sales calls your business, your million dollar company made last month when every other competitive industry tracks that stuff.
Jodie: Tracks that. Yeah.
Howard: They track it. They have good goals. We want to make twenty calls a day. So, how many charts do you have that are not scheduled? My definition of an active patient is brutal. Mine is how many people are scheduled for something, a six month three call, filling crown. Are they scheduled? Now, a lot of people will take that number in times of times two. But the question is, if you have eight hundred people scheduled for something and a lot of people will say, "Well, from pattern recognition, if you have eight hundred people scheduled for something, you'd probably have sixteen hundred active patients". Well, then sixteen hundred active patients. How many of those do you call a day? How many of those are outbound sales? And if your receptionist is spending two hours a day verifying insurance claims, what if she was spending two hours a day on outbound sales?
Howard: And what if your receptionist would rather do technical work? It really doesn't want to do outbound sales?
Jodie: Right, that has to be identified and you have to get the right person on the bus for that.
Howard: Yeah. I mean, imagine if any other business had someone in their sales team who says, "I don't like to sell".
Howard: How long would they have that job?
Jodie: That's a good point.
Howard: I mean, they have to like it. And as far as not liking it yourself, I always tell dentists "Just turn into doc Hollywood". I mean, I love Hollywood because I love the fact that these actors can pretend there any character known to man. Meryl Streep is the best. She could be a drunk, crazy lady in one scene. I mean, she could do anything. I'll never forget an interview, she was trying out for this part and then she was with Kathy Bates and the director, I think it was Oliver Stone said, "Well, who wants to play what?" And Kathy Bates, "Well, I really, really want to play this one, and I don't want to play that one". And he turned to Meryl Streep and says, "Well, are you okay with that?" And she goes, "I don't care. Just tell me the part. I'll play that part. I don't care who it is, what the part is. I get a person.
Howard: So, when we pull up to work, you can just turn on Hollywood. You can go in there and you can pretend that you're a leader and you can pretend you like asking for referrals and you can pretend you do outbound sales. And another thing is, when the dentist gets done with their dentistry, the assistant checks them out and they always go back in the office and close the door instead of walking up front, pressing the flesh, running from there and you can turn to your receptionist, "Hey, is there anybody I need to call back?" And she can turn to me and say, "You know what? This lady called and she talked to me for ten minutes about this or that. Then I don't really even know what happened, but she said she had to go bang, bang, bang. And if you could call her back?" Then I'll call her back and say, "Jodie, Howard Farran. I'm the dentist at Today's Dental, right next Safeway. Valerie said you called, had some questions. She wasn't sure if you had more questions or is there anything I can help you with?"
Jodie: Wonderful. Wonderful. Who in the world does that Howard? That's wonderful.
Howard: And if you're running late, you know, every assistant will verify the story, that they're in the operatory, they're all upset, the doctor's running late and then, when the doctor walks in the room, the patient acts like nothing's happened. Like, "Oh, how are you doctor Farran?" "And how are you?" And the assistant is standing behind him with a hands like, "Oh my God, she was just ready to slap you all the way back to next Tuesday. And then you walked in. She's being all nice to you." Well, it's the same thing when you're running late. You're the doctor, the buck stops there and you walk out in the waiting room, saying, "Jodie, I am so sorry. I ran fifteen minutes late. I am so sorry."
Jodie: Yes. They'd love that. You know Howard, that reminds me of the post-op call, because I remember years ago I went to get my wisdom teeth out, and that evening the oral surgeon called me. I felt like I was, I felt very special. I got a phone call from the doctor himself. "I'm Jodie, I'm calling to see how you're feeling today, how you feeling this evening". I was like in shock, but the feeling I had was so great and you know, people remember you by how you make them feel. I don't know what instruments he used or how he did the surgery or what the crown looks like, but I will remember how I felt in my experience. So that's a super, super good point. Why can't the dentist talk to patients more outside of the realm of the treatment room?
Jodie: And talking about being late, you have to be where anybody on the team, the back-office should come to the front and say, "Hey, you know what? This turned into a root canal. We weren't expecting it. So can you let so and so know?" Or "I'll go out and let so and so know it's going to be a few more minutes." When you give the patient the courtesy of letting them know, and you have to gauge that. My gauge was ten minutes. If we were ten minutes into the appointment time of the person waiting to be seen, I would always make sure somebody went out into the reception room or into the treatment room and say, "I'm so sorry. Just wanted to let you know that something turned up and it's going to be another x amount of time. Are you okay with that? Can I get you something to drink? Do you need to make a phone call? Do you want to reschedule?" Give them the option. That makes the patient feel really cared for. And it also kind of starts them over. Like if you say "We can get to you in about ten minutes, is that okay?" In their mind, Howard, their appointment is now ten minutes from now. So, just keep communicating with your patients like that. And sure, doctor can do it too. Absolutely.
Howard: And also, when you look at the ADA statistics on overhead. I mean, the dentist takes 35%, staff takes 25%, lab ten, supply is six, mortgage five. I mean, operatories don't even show up. And pre process waits drive patients crazy. But in process waits don't. For instance, if I have a ten o'clock appointment and it's ten fifteen, I might be ready to blow a gasket. But if you seat me on time because you have extra operatories and then the doctor can get you in there and then numb you up and say "I really want this to soak in for at least 15 minutes. I don't want you to feel a thing." So then they think, "Okay, well I am in process. I'm doing something, I'm letting it soak in."
Howard: So, it just drives me crazy that when you go into any dental office in America, the number one constraint is an operatory and you have this expensive people standing around waiting for a room. And it's like, dude, rooms aren't your costs. There's no cost to a room. And then any dentists that says to me, "Well, I don't have room for another operatory." I've never met a single rep from Patterson or Schein that couldn't find a place to shove in another chair. It might be your private office.
Jodie: That's right.
Howard: And I tell them that, "You know, superman works out of a phone booth. Why do you need this big room?" You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you work with so many consultants. What problems are they hearing in the field and what are they best at solving? I mean, what are they mostly doing for your average dentist?
Jodie: Well, my focus with the consultants naturally comes to the insurance verification. So we don't necessarily talk about all of the different issues that they come across. But one thing that I have heard quite often is the leadership of the dentist. And that can be lacking. Where, we know Howard, you go to dental school, you learn about your technology and your treatment and things like that. And you said yourself earlier, there's not a whole lot of education as it relates to what else is going on in the practice. How do you manage your employees? How do you get them to do what you expect them to do? How do you know if they're doing what you expect them to do? So, I think leadership is probably the thing that I've heard the most from dental consultants where that can be lacking from the top down. And consultants are very good at working with the dentists themselves and teaching them how to be leaders in the practice.
Howard: So, how do you speed up leadership for a twenty-five year old kid?
Jodie: Oh my gosh!
Howard: I mean, are there go to books that you like? I mean, how do you...?
Jodie: Well, I'm not a dental consultant per se, so I don't necessarily work in that realm with the dentists. In my small world with Trojan and whatnot, I can definitely encourage dentists to be involved in the training at some level that they're putting their employees through. And this is something that I congratulate dentists for doing. Even when I was with 1-800-DENTIST, I always said, "Doctor, I want you to be there when I come out to your office, when I fly out and do an orientation and training for your team. I want you to be there so that you'll know what I'm asking them to do. So that when they come back to you and say, 'This isn't working or that isn't working', you're going to be the one that knows what they were supposed to be doing and are they doing it or not." So, one of the things that I think is very important in terms of leadership from the top down, is that the dentist actually gets involved and starts learning right alongside their team members. And I congratulate dentists for coming. I always say, "Thank you so much, Howard, or Dr. Farran, for coming to this orientation or training today". And I say this, "Most dentists don't involve themselves in that. They just leave it all up to the front. So I just want to congratulate you for being a part of this training today."
Howard: And the best staff training is just to reduce staff turnover. I mean, they will eventually learn and learn and learn. But how long did you work for your doctor?
Jodie: Well, I worked for one for four years and I worked for another one for fifteen.
Howard: Yeah, when you stay with someone four years or fifteen years, I mean, you eventually just get really, really, really good.
Jodie: You can.
Howard: But so many of these offices, the turnover, you know, I can't take a new person and ramp them up and then have to do that position every year or two. You know what I mean? So, slowing down employee turnover, is the best long term plan on a training.
Jodie: You see, again Howard, even if you're in the industry for years and years, you may have someone that is not really boosting your business the way you need it to be boosted. Some of these people that work in the office can be stuck in their ways. And if you don't have good leadership, that's not going to be recognized. It's not going to be confronted. They're not going to be supported or they can say to the team member, "Okay, I need you to take this seminar from so and so and then we're going to learn this together and implement".
Jodie: I'm very, very fortunate because the first dentist that I worked for invested in me and sent me to all the seminars like I mentioned, and the second one was a hands on dentist. He wrote the office manual. In fact, the first week that I worked for him, Howard, he sat me down in front of a computer, and we had (unclear: 59:23) back then okay. He sat me down in front of a computer and he started showing me how to enter insurance checks. So this is the type of a leader that, you know, I'm not saying every dentist needs to know how to do that, but get in there and get into the trenches and figure out how things work. And that's what I hear from dentists who show up to our trainings and orientations when they say, "Well, I want to know how this works so I can help. And if she has a question, we can work together on this and I can learn with her." And I just think that that's really crucial. And the doctor that I worked for, you know, the fifteen years, I was raised up by that person because that person said to me, "Jodie, you don't set somebody up for an appointment. You schedule an appointment with them or you make a reservation for them." He's very big on verbal skills. So that's where I picked that up from. You don't do a filling on somebody, you do a filling for somebody. So, one little word can change the whole message. So, I'm very, very blessed to have been, what I call raised up, in that environment.
Howard: I can't believe we already went over an hour. That was a rockin' hot fast hour, but I just want to end on one story, and that is in our lifetime, one of the biggest banks that ever came, was Citigroup. I mean, it just became a monster, it came out of nowhere. And it was all led by Sandy Weill. In fact his protégé was Jamie Dimon, who's now the CEO of Chase, who I've had the great fortune to have dinner with three times. And Sandy Weill, when he got a job at Citibank, the reason Citibank just became the end-all, is because he just kept asking management, "Okay, when my mom goes to the store and she writes a check, how does that end up in our bank? How is that credit?" And he was mind-struck that every CEO, every vice president, knew none of the details. He's like, "These guys are running a billion dollar bank and they have no idea what's going on".
Howard: So his intellectual curiosity kept going through the processes and every time he would dig deep and roll up his hands, and he'd actually go down to these warehouses where they're clearing checks and all this, back in the seventies before computers. And as he understood that, he saw all these inefficiencies, he saw no leadership involved and he started putting it all together. So what happened to this bank? It got faster, it got easier, it got higher quality, it got lower costs. The next thing you know, Citibank was clearing checks for all their competitors. I mean, but it was a guy who literally wanted to start in the mailroom even though he didn't have to. He was just a kid from Brooklyn who wanted to know, how does this actually work?
Howard: So, then you go into a dental office and then the dentist finds out that the receptionist has been embezzling from him for five years and he doesn't know how to do credit card payment. He doesn't know. He doesn't roll up their hands. And that's another disease I see, in the understanding of clinical dentistry, is that when the house is on fire, they love to fly out of town and go to a resort and study occlusion and all (unclear? 01:02:28) and all this stuff. Because as soon as they get out of town, they feel better. Instead of just saying, "You know what, I don't". There's so many million dollar practices that all they do is cleanings, fillings, exams, X-rays. They don't do lasers and CAD/CAMs and all this stuff like that. Let's just fix the house on fire, let's fix the house, let's get a consultant.
Jodie: Get our systems in place.
Howard: Yeah, roll up your sleeves, and just learn the system and it'll just get faster, easier, you know, you just got to confront the vase. Well, thanks for giving me an hour and five minutes of your life.
Jodie: Thank you Howard.
Howard: It was amazing. I'd love to get that webinar on Dentaltown.
Jodie: Okay, we'll do it.
Howard: It's just way too much clinical stuff on there. Just gosh, we have so many courses on root canals, fillings and crowns. I mean, it makes me cringe and it's my site. I mean, I know that if these guys get their house in order then they could enjoy doing what they want to do, which is all the dentistry, you know what I mean?
Jodie: Yes, definitely. Absolutely.
Howard: But they to get house in order. And Jodie, thank you so much.
Jodie: Thank you for having me, Howard.
Howard: So, the website is trojanonline and the other one was the admc.net for the Academy of Dental Management Consultants. That is admc, Academy of Dental Management Consultants, admc.net. And then you're trojanonline...
Howard: .com. Jodie, thank you so much.
Jodie: Hey Howard, I want to give my number too, okay? My number is eight hundred, four, five, one, nine, seven, two, three. And my extension is six, oh, four, six. So if anybody wants to reach out to me personally, whether it's an interested office or consultant, call me directly and then I'll take care of you.
Howard: Okay, so that number is one, eight hundred, four, five, one, nine, seven, two, three. Extension six, zero, four, six. Again, Jodie, thank you so much for coming on.
Jodie: Thank you, Howard.
Howard: I hope you have a rockin' hot day.
Jodie: I'm going to. It already started out great. Thanks, Ryan.