Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
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1063 You Can Do It! with Grace Jun, DDS : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1063 You Can Do It! with Grace Jun, DDS : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

6/14/2018 11:24:49 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 254

1063 You Can Do It! with Grace Jun, DDS : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Grace Jun is a mother of two kids and is married to a dentist. She started dental school at age 33 to escape the difficulties of raising kids. She remembers thinking while in dental school “I got to play while I was in dental school and my real job started when I got home”. Despite the challenges of immigrating to America in 1982 and learning a new language and culture, she struggled through her own mental blocks of being told: “she was stupid”. After many years of schooling with a Bachelors and Masters in Psychology/Behavioral Science, she was exposed to dentistry by her husband, who changed careers from engineering to dentistry also at age 33. Grace Jun graduated from the University of Oklahoma College of Dentistry in 2013 and since have opened a dental assisting school and her own practice, Grace Dentistry in Oklahoma City. She is an advocate for women who seek second chances in life and have since become an inspiration to other women who thought it was “too late” for a new career.

VIDEO - DUwHF #1063 - Grace Jun

AUDIO - DUwHF #1063 - Grace Jun

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1063 You Can Do It! with Grace Jun, DDS : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Howard: It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast-interviewing Grace Jun DDS all the way from Oklahoma City. She is a mother of two kids and is married to a dentist. She started dental school at age thirty-three to escape the difficulties of raising kids. She remembers thinking while in dental school, “I got to play while I was in dental school and my real job started when I got home.” Despite the challenges of immigrating to America in 1982 and learning a new language and culture, she struggled through her own mental blocks of being told “she was stupid”. After many years of schooling with a Bachelors and a Masters in Psychology/Behavioral Science, she was exposed to dentistry by her husband, who changed careers from engineering to dentistry also at age thirty-three. Grace Jun graduated from the University of Oklahoma College of Dentistry in 2013 and since have opened a dental assisting school and her own practice, Grace Dentistry in Oklahoma City. She is an advocate for women who seek second chances in life and have since become an inspiration to other women who thought it was “too late” for a new career. That is just an amazing story. Where did you immigrate from? 

Grace: South Korea.

Howard: South Korea, and at what age?

Grace: I was six.

Howard: Six years old. Did you know any English when you came? 

Grace: No, we only knew "thank you very much". I didn't really know what that really even meant. We just said it during our customs, like my brother kept on saying, "Just say thank you very much. Thank you very much." And that's all we said.

Howard: And who came over? Your mom and dad or just your mom? Why did you move from South Korea to Oklahoma City? 

Grace: My dad is a pastor or he was a pastor and he came to Wisconsin first a year before us because he was pioneering the church and then a year after the church was established, we all came, which is three older brothers, my mom and I. So we came over and joined him. 

Howard: So you originally were in Wisconsin? 

Grace: Milwaukee. I lived in the ghettos, like we went back and we’re like, we didn't realize how poor we were until we actually went back and we’re like, we were really, really, really poor. 

Howard: Now, is Christianity very big in South Korea? How did your Korean father become a Christian pastor in Wisconsin? 

Grace: Well, he was a pastor in South Korea and he received Christ when he was about to die from tuberculosis. He grew up in the war era and he got really sick and he did the whole "if you let me live, I'm going to sacrifice my life for you" and he did. He's still alive and he's still slightly preaching, but he's retired and then there was an opportunity open in Wisconsin to open up a church and that's where he went. 

Howard: And then after Wisconsin you went to Oklahoma?

Grace: Yeah, so there was a church in Lawton, Oklahoma, which is close to a military base called Fort Sill, and a chaplain had started a church there. But the chaplain obviously is getting moved to different stations and they needed another pastor to fill that position, so my father came down and he got the job to Oklahoma. 

Howard: So are you glad you live in Oklahoma instead of Wisconsin? You got much nicer winters in Oklahoma than Wisconsin. 

Grace: Yeah, Oklahoma, it's a great place to be raising kids. The cost of living is low. I think it's very conservative. I think Oklahoma is a great place. 

Howard: Well, I was born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, so we're just like three hours, just take thirty-five, it's about three hours because my mom had three brothers and one of her brothers, Mark Wilcox lived in Oklahoma. So it was actually Edmond, Oklahoma. Have you heard of Edmond? 

Grace: Yeah, I practice close to Edmond. 

Howard: Oh, you do right now?

Grace: Uhmm.

Howard: Yeah, so we used to always go down there and that was so much fun. But what I thought the funniest thing about Kansas, Oklahoma is, is that the accent changes exactly on the border. You can be at a small gas station ten miles north of the Oklahoma border and they talk like Kansas and as soon as you cross that line, the next gas station, they talk like Oklahoma because in Kansas we didn't have an accent. We spoke normal and then as soon as you cross that line …

Grace: Normal?

Howard: And then as soon as you cross that line- But hey, so how did you believe you were stupid? Who was telling you were stupid when you were little and being raised? 

Grace: When I came to the States, I had a really difficult time learning English and my brothers excelled a lot quicker than I did. We had to go to summer schools if you didn't know how to speak English or if you didn't pass your classes during the regular school years. Well, I went to summer school all the time and they went maybe one year and they kept on saying, "Well, that's because you're stupid. You're stupid. You can't speak English." And after awhile when someone keeps saying that to you, you start to really, really believe it, especially when you're young and there are things around you enforcing that that is what you are because why are you the only one going to summer school when all your brothers have summers off and you're constantly making bad grades in school and no one talks to you and then the only thing you're good at my brother would say is, "The only thing you're good at is cleaning. You're going to be a cleaning lady because you're so stupid." And so after a while and thats just your brothers being brothers, being a jerk as they always are, you start to believe that and you start to believe it in your mind and that's what you grew up with, and that's the image that you have of yourself. 

Howard: Yeah, it's amazing what you hear mothers and fathers telling their children. I'm just blown away by what you hear adults telling three year olds, four year olds, five year olds, six year olds. You just cringe. It's crazy. This is Dentistry Uncensored, so I don't want to talk about anything anybody agrees on, so I'm going to go right to the most controversial stuff that nobody agrees on. True or false: A lot of people believe that what's going to fuel DSOs is because half the class now is women and they don't want to wear all these hats of being a business owner and being mom and all this. They just want a professional job, Monday through Friday, eight to five, so that at five o'clock they can go home and concentrate on the family and being a mom. True or false?

Grace: I think that's true to maybe 25% of the female population that graduate as a dentist. I think they initially think that when they finish school, but once they get into the DSOs just like I did, I realized that I don't really like to be told what to do all the time and I don't like to be pushed around. And even though when I left school, I was like, "There's no way I'm going to open my own practice. I'm going to work for public health," and all that stuff, and I realized that that wasn't my personality. I think women, once they go into that sector, they realize that they're not fit for this environment and they're better suited to open their own practice, and I see a lot of my classmates that are female that are opening up their own private practices. 

Howard: I completely agree. I'm always in these dental schools and they're bombarded by all this brainwashing from DSOs. They're always in there having pizza lunches and learns and telling them that everything you and I are doing is dying and it's all going to turn into McDental's and Walgreens and CVS and better get on now. But I always go into the school and say, "Okay, well if this little unicorn utopia world works, then why don't you go back when you were a freshman and who graduated seniors four years ago, look up all their names so they should all be happy working for someone else and they're not. I don't see evidence of this." And there's another piece of study. Just go to the United States military. I remember having a lengthy conversation with a three-star general and my office patient. He said the same thing about military. The only people you can tell what to do are very young boys. They don't want forty, fifty year old men and women joining the military because hey don't take orders and the large corporations that have lots of employees taking orders, they're always high school graduates. Like you can have half a million employees if you're a Walmart and everybody has a high school diploma, but by the time you become a law firm, a dentist, a physician, an engineer as they get really highly educated, then they really don't want to be told what to do. You can tell an eighteen year old dumb boy what to do, but you can't tell a twenty-eight year old doctor of dental surgery what to do, whether he's a boy or a girl. I mean that's the whole nature of humans. They don't want to be controlled. 

Grace: Yeah, I totally agree. 

Howard: Now I want to ask you another question because I'm not qualified to answer because I am actually a boy. Is dentistry a great field for women?

Grace: I think it's an awesome field for women. I think it's a great balance of a career and a family and it's well-compensating. It's a skill that you can have, regardless if your husband dies, cheats on you, leaves you, you will always have this skill and you will always be able to make money. You might not be in the perfect environment to make that money, let's say even if you didn't own your practice, you will still be able to support your family. I believe it's a wonderful field for a woman. 

Howard: And if your husband leaves- Put them in order. When you said dies, cheats on you and leaves. Put them in order of your preference.

Grace: I would rather he die first.

Howard: Die first? Then what would the second be?

Grace: I can handle the cheating. What was the other one?

Howard: Leaves you.

Grace: He leaves me. Yeah, I mean he can leave me if he really wanted to. Yeah, if he was tired of me. 

Howard: Well, one of the biggest controversies is ten, twenty years ago you used to always hear pastors and people saying quality time, and then there's always talking about the work-life balance, so how do you do it? When you leave your dental office, is it a hard, "I am no longer in the dental office" or it is all family time and you have these hard, strict rules of "works when I'm in the dental office, families when I at home" or do you have a different mix of work-life balance? How do you do the work-life bal-? First of all, how many children do you have? 

Grace: I have two. One is sixteen and one is fourteen. 

Howard: See, that's because you're a Protestant. If you'd been a Catholic, you'd have five, if you were a Mormon you would have had eight. So you're a protestant, so on that work life balance, what were your rules? How did you do it.

Grace: It's a little different because my husband's a dentist, so we tend to always talk about dentistry. Our conversation is never about really our kids or our social life, which we don't have much of. It's always about dentistry. Like, "Hey man, I did this Class II prep, I tried that chlorhexidine before, I put the bond in there," you know, and we really, really nerd out on dentistry all the time. So I have a hard time balancing the work from dentistry because even when I was working for corporate, that's all we would talk about. Regardless if I had my own business or not, we'd always be talking about dentistry. So it's kind of sad because my kids hate dentistry now, but I guess to say it, I'm not very well-balanced. 

Howard: Actually, when you have a fourteen, sixteen year old, I always tell people like you that you're out on the beach and you got an umbrella and you're having a fancy drink with a little umbrella in it. You think life's great. But man, when those kids- Soon as you hand them their car keys, all bets are off. You don't even know what you have with this one. You think you had these four little shy boys growing up named Eric, Greg, Ryan and Zack. How many cars did my boys stack between the ages of sixteen and twenty? I think everyone totaled between one and two car- I mean, just all hell breaks loose. So enjoy. Did you get the sixteen year old car yet? 

Grace: He can take my old car. 

Howard: Okay, well your life is about to- You're about to go from a caterpillar to a butterfly, and the thing you need to remember that is as soon as they turn into a beautiful butterfly, they only live two weeks. So do you and your husband work in the same office or do you have separate offices? 

Grace: No, he works at a pediatric dental office. He's a general dentist but works at a private pediatric office and he's probably the only person that I know that is at the same place that he worked from the day he graduated and he's never left and he does not have any plans on leaving. He loves where he worked.

Howard: And how long has he been there?

Grace: I believe nine years.

Howard: That's what the data shows with associates, and when I talk about associates, I hope people don't think I'm throwing DSOs goes under a bus and not private practice because I just look at the data, and the data shows that the turnover with DSOs, it's the same as in private practice. So you hear all these dentists saying, "But you know, those dentists, they only stay in that place for a year and they quit." It's like, "Dude, in private practice, it's exactly the same, but the cutoff, the tipping point, is two years." In my thirty years of having associates, I agree with the data. I see it all the time that you have rapid turnover, like 80% in the first two years, but if they make it two years, that 20% they'll stay for on average for a decade. And your husband's been there nine years, he has (unclear 00:14:46). So the deal is that two years is the tipping point. Now, what about you? So he's been out of school nine years. Did you guys graduate the same year at dental school? 

Grace: No, he graduated and then I went in, so we kind of tag-teamed it. 

Howard: So you've been out in five years and so where are you at now? You started in DSOs, but now you have your own practice?

Grace: Yeah, I started out, I jumped around a lot of associate ships and I have to say I was probably like the worst associate ever. I would never hire someone like me as an associate, but knowing that now, I started my own practice. It's been about five, six months. 

Howard: Nice. So you're in the-

Grace: Survival stage.

Howard: Yeah, so first of all, let's go back to your associates. So how many associate ship jobs do you think you had that five years?

Grace: Three, three to four.

Howard: Three to four? And what were the main reasons why you were leaving? 

Grace: The first one, the practice was a brand new de novo practice and it was failing and I felt like it was me and the owners kind of felt that it was me, but later, now that it's been about five years since that's happened, I realized it's not me because the practice has been sold to like three different doctors and every single one of them has failed in that same location. So I feel like it was a location issue. The second associate ship was with Heartland, and I learned a lot from Heartland. I have nothing really- There's good and bad to that, but I learned so much from Heartland, and I stayed there for close to two years, but not quite two years. Heartland, I had a lot of conflict with the regional manager on top. I think it started with she wanted me to take Medicaid. I refused to take Medicaid. It was a de novo office, so it's a startup office for Heartland as well. We had a lot of differences in how we wanted to run the business because in Heartland, the doctor is supposed to be the leader and they're supposed to decide on how the marketing is supposed to be done and whatnot. They have a say and so we really didn't see eye to eye in how to run the office, and so we had a lot of conflict there. 

Howard: So a lot of the kids listening to this are still in dental school. "De novo" is two words, D-E novo, and I assume it's French. Is it French? It's starting from the beginning, anew, and so a lot of these chains like Heartland, these DSOs, we'll do a roll up where they'll get a big line of credit and they'll go buy a lot of existing practices, but sometimes they just open up practices from scratch and when they up up from scratch it's called a de novo. So there's so many business models that work in dentistry, but you didn't want to do the low price, high volume Medicaid, Medicare practice.

Grace: Yeah, I saw my quality of dentistry was diminishing and I wasn't proud, the more patients I was seeing at a shorter amount of time. 

Howard: Yeah, and a lot of the people in government and Pew and Bernie Sanders, what they don't get is, when they say free, well I mean look at a car. A Ford Escort is fifteen thousand. A Ford Taurus is thirty thousand. And when the average Medicaid fee is about 35% of the dentist's normal, usual and customary fee, and his overhead's 65%- Well, if your overhead is 65% and you're paying me 35%, I can't make a Ford Taurus for thirty thousand. Everybody that owns their own business know this. The only people that don't know it is the entire government of the United States. I mean California legislators, they all have a law degree and they said one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. They said, "The dentists in California, they don't take Medicaid. We raised the fee schedule significantly and we were surprised that 10% more of the dentists signed up for it." Really? That surprised you? Well, why don't you just go into a Ferrari dealership and say, "Well, I have this coupon from Bernie Sanders and I only have to pay for the price of a used car or a Ford Escort and give me that $200,000 Ferrari." I mean, people just don't get it, and there's nothing wrong with the lower quality because I believe that there should be- Look at housing. You can go anywhere from a trailer to a condo, an apartment, ll the way to a flipping mansion. And if healthcare wants to live in this bubble that it doesn't have price segmentation, well they're living in this fantasy world of "woulda, shoulda, coulda" and that's not how the real world works. You can't incentivize somebody to go through eight to twelve years of college and be a physician, a dentist, a surgeon, and all this stuff, and then work for a minimum wage. That's not going to work. You can't sit there and say, "We need to have MRIs and CAT scans and CBCTs. but we want to pay for an old-fashioned radiograph that Rankin developed a hundred years ago." They have no sense of reality, and that's what I love about economics and math. There's no emotions in it. I don't care if two plus two makes you feel sad; it's four. And if it makes you feel sad or happy that's your problem. It's not what math and economics says. It's how you interpret it with yourself. It just is what it is. I mean, it just is what it is, so when you do high volume, low fee- And dentists don't get it either because the high volume, low fee, you switch to amalgam and they're like, "I don't want Amalgam. I want to do direct composite." Well, why don't you just say you just want to do gold inlays. I have seven restorations in my mouth. They're all gold inlays cemented with zinc phosphate cement. You can't do that on a Medicaid fee schedule and I don't think you can post your composites either. I can bang out an amalgam back there and shoot, you don't even have to have a rubber dam with an amalgam, but then-

Grace: They still do amalgam regardless if they paid for it or not.

Howard: Yeah, and that's the problem. When people go to low fee, high volume, they still try to make a $30,000 Ford Taurus. I'm like, "You can't do that, dude. You're losing money. You got to switch to a Ford Escort. It's public transportation. It's a bus." And they're like, "Well, I wanted to be in a Ferrari." It's like, "Okay, then you can't take Medicare. If you want to build Ferraris, you can't take Medicare or Medicaid." Then some dentists love treating the poor. I do, I think it's fun, but your dental office has to focus. You got to sit there and say, "I am a Ford Escort for fifteen thousand or I'm a Ford Taurus thirty thousand." You have to pick one. So, you talked about you're passionate about giving women second chances regardless of their age. You can be anything you want to be. That's a strong message. There's a lot of hygienists out, dental assistants- There's a hygienist, we got to get her on the show, she was like you. She was working three or four different offices and said forget it, and she realized she lives in Arizona, one of the few states where you don't have to be a dentist to own a dental office, so she started her own dental office. So now she's a hygienist who owns her own damn office because the dentists wouldn't listen to her, the office managers wouldn't listen to her, and guess what? Now she's the owner and she's making probably five times more or ten times more money than any hygienists in the state of Arizona. We got to get her on the show. 

Grace: How is that even working out? I have a hard time seeing dentists working for a hygienist. I guess it would be no different than working for businessmen that owned the DSO.

Howard: Right, I mean Heartland's got what? Eight hundred and thirty offices. Aspen's got six fifty. Pacific dental has got five hundred. So yeah, and then that's another thing. There's market segmentations. You can't label and say all dentists would not be an associate or all dentists would be associates. It just really depends on circumstances. So what dental school did you graduate from? 

Grace: University of Oklahoma, OU.

Howard: You worked in that first office and it was failing. My question is, do demographics matter? Do you think that first office was failing because- You said it was sold to three other dentists and they couldn't it running either? Do you think it was a demographics issue? When you're in the state of Oklahoma, do you think demographics matter or can anybody open up in Oklahoma City or Tulsa and just do it or do they need to be rural or-

Grace: I think demographics really matter. I think it makes a big difference. I think marketing is a big issue as well. If you're going to be in a high-concentrated area, you have to have your marketing straight and it's got to be effective. 

Howard: So did you do a lot of demographic research for where you went? 

Grace: Where I opened, I should have a little bit better, but no, I didn't. Opportunity came. I'm in a different office, not a traditional office. This guy had an associate and the associate ship didn't work out for a year and so he had built a brand new huge office and he had operatories available so he offered to lease out those operatories. And so I took on it before I even did any of demographics. I knew it's a really high-concentrated area and sought-after street. It's a really big name street, so I just took it, regardless of the demographics was there or not because the risk was so low. I didn't have to buy any equipment, I'm just leasing his space and we have two completely separate offices under the same roof. Very non-traditional, but it saved me tons of money and I really get to pan out my systems, and just really build the office the way I want it, and it's more like an experimental ground for me to figure out what I really want. 

Howard: And how's it going a half year into it?

Grace: I love it. It's going really great. It is a great way for me to- I would recommend it for anybody. I really would. It's given me opportunity to try things that I probably would not have tried because I don't have as much of a risk, and also, I just don't have much of an overhead. I have a very low overhead and I don't have to see the patients I don't want to see. I don't have to say yes to patients that are really difficult. If I don't want to see them, I just tell them, "I'm not a good fit for you. I think you should look for another dentist." I could be a lot more selective on the patient pool that I want.

Howard: Because you're a red solo?

Grace: Yeah, because I mean I don't have to have them to say yes. I would like for them to say yes, but I don't need them to have to say yes because I have other things that's able to support me financially. 

Howard: And these young kids, they got all these student loan money and they got all this debt, so they think you got to just take every patient, do every case because they got to pay the bills. And so many of these cases- It's the eighty-twenty rule. 20% of the cases you're not even making money on, you're losing money, whether it be Medicaid or Medicare, if you're in a Ford Taurus practice or like the beautiful girl comes in and she's missing her front tooth. So you think, "Well, I can place an implant there," and then you do the implant and the crown, but she's gorgeous and high lip line and you end up redoing it and doing all this, showing it to everybody whereas if you had some fat grandpa like me with a liver spot on his head, they don't even care that when they smile, you can't even see the margin. One of the fastest, most successful dentists that come out of school, they're all books smart or you wouldn't be a doctor of dental surgery. The ones that crush it are also street smart, and they can smell that this patient is a PITA and it's going to be a high overhead, high margin. Or they come in, all red flags, they start telling you how the last three dentists were idiots and that they left him bad Yelp reviews and all this stuff like that, and you just got to run. You just have to run. So what do you like to do?

Grace: Lately I think just the area that I'm in is a very affluent neighborhood where the business is, lately we've been doing a lot of cosmetic cases, so that has been like the eighty-twenty rule for me. That is like 80% of my income, but that's 20% of really what I'm doing, but that's feeding pretty much my office. That's how my office is running because of the bigger cases that were getting. I enjoy the dentistry in itself. I can enjoy any dentistry you want to enjoy. It's a mindset, right? But I really enjoy the patient relationship more than anything. I know that kind of sounds cheesy, but I really do. I enjoy talking with them, I enjoy spending time with them and getting to know them and their families. It's just a little different than what I was used to like a Medicaid office that I used to work at and Heartland where it was the DSO. I can really take my time, and it's been paying off because whenever I do build that relationship with the patient, they like me and they're willing to trust me and they're saying yes only when I'm able to spend that time with them. And not a lot of dentists can do that because they have to see the next patient. But I only see one patient at a time, not only because I don't have a lot of patients, but because I can. 

Howard: Man, you said it's a mindset, liking dentistry. First of all, I think one thousand podcasts in, you're the first dentist that ever just described- You just called your dental office your business. You said our business is in a very affluent area. How beautiful is that? You know it's a business. You didn't say, "My dental office is in an affluent area." You said, "My business is in an affluent area." We should rewind the tape and- That's just beautiful. And then mindset is everything. You just said that you like all phases of dentistry because it's a mindset but same thing with communication. You say these DSOs are higher volume, they don't have time to talk to the patient. Man, even when I'm in these DSOs, the dentist will numb up the patient and then he'll go back to his private office and shut the door for ten minutes and then get on Reddit or Facebook or Dentaltown or whatever. That is the mindset, and I don't know if they're born that way. I do know that dental schools, their natural selection is they don't get people who have a well-rounded life and were in a fraternity and had a girlfriend and volunteered and- It's just straight, "Did you get an A plus in calculus, physics, geometry and trig?" And then they bring in all these freaks who, you know- Well, how do you get an A in all those classes? Well, you didn't have a girlfriend, you didn't join a frat, you didn't go out, you didn't have a life. You just sat in a library for four years and now when that patient says, "Hi, Dr. Jun-" Is it "Jun"? Do you pronounce it "Jun"?

Grace: It's "Jun". That's why they call me Dr. Grace because I was like, "Nobody gets it right. Just call me Dr. Grace. It'a a lot easier."

Howard: So it's pronounced "Jun"?

Grace: It's "Jun". Like "fun".

Howard: "Jun" like "fun"? I like that. My other friend David Ngo — he was Vietnamese — he'd always say, "Yeah, it's spelled like B-I-N-G-O, David Ngo. B-I-N-G-O." So he's saying "bingo", and every time I have to type out or write out or text "David Ngo" I still go through that word "bingo". I go, "Okay, David B-I-N-G-O." So Grace is fun, her last name's "Jun". So you just go by Dr Grace. That is so amazing. I remember when I set up, I had one of my very good friends who was (unclear 00:31:41), went to Cleveland and his last name was like seventeen letters long and I said, "You can't market that name in Phoenix, Arizona, but your first name (that he americanized) was made up. You've got to go with that." So when you talk about 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your patients, these cosmetic cases, like what is a cosmetic case? When you say do a cosmetic case, what does that typically mean? 

Grace: We're doing a lot of veneers or patients come in with old crowns. They had that first six, but they realized that the posterior is just like really black back there, so she wanted a fuller smile, and then I noticed like the first six that she had, it was done like ten years ago and the margins are breaking down, and so we do eleven crowns because she wants a fuller smile, but she has crowns in every single one of her teeth. So we would redo the crowns, every single one of them. And a lot of them are fee for service. They're not insurance-driven. Those that want the cosmetic cases, they don't have any insurance. and then we've done, they've had been years before, they did it twenty years ago, they want new ones. They don't like the color, they don't like the way it looks anymore, so we redo those. A lot of it has been kind of the older patient population that's a little bit more affluent. 

Howard: By the way Ryan, (unclear 00:33:14) dentist, that was Dr. (unclear 0033:19) Siraya. Do you remember him as a little kid?

Ryan: I remember that name.

Howard: Yeah, he used to come over all the time and he went with his marking Dr. Steve, but oh my God, Steve was so amazing. And was so sad, one of the smartest dentists I met, one of the nicest guys, he was the all-American person and he was the first one of our buddies to pass away. You thought the fat, drinking, bacon-eating guy would go first, and it was the healthiest. And who was the first guided dental school class? Class of '87 Jum  (unclear 00:33:55)? The guy who ran a marathon like once a month all through dental school, he was the first guy to die. That's why I eat bacon three times a day.

Grace: You just gave up.

Howard: I just keep seeing all these healthy people, but man when Steven [inaudible 00:34:17] died, that was so painful and it was kind of like those movie critics. Remember (unclear 00:34:20)?

Grace: Yeah.

Howard: [Inaudible 00:34:26] You knew the fat guy was gonna have a heart attack, choke to death on a piece of bacon first and the skinny exercising guy went first. So tough to know. A lot of these kids are coming out of school with a lot of student loan debt, and so one of the things when they're young, they're looking at you thinking, when you started that practice, did you have to spend a lot of money on chairside milling or a CBCT or a laser? Are you doing these high-end cosmetic cases? Did you have to buy a bunch of expensive toys? 

Grace: No, I just dusted off my old articulator. That's pretty much all I did because I'm leasing all the other equipment. He doesn't have a CBCT, he doesn't have a chairside, like a CEREC machine. We work with a really great lab and that's it. It's not costly. Can I talk back really quick on what you mentioned about the dentists that are out there that have no personalities and they're kind of A students that are really nerdy? I think that wave of demographic is changing. I feel like majority of the dentists that I'm seeing now that are much younger, they're graduating from dental school, I would say about ten of them are the awkward, introspective, they're socially awkward. But the majority of them are really, really, first of all, very good-looking, they are very well-rounded, they are very well-spoken and they're very business-savvy and they know their strengths. I think a lot of dentists nowadays are coming out, they're much younger. They have a really big competitive edge compared to what it was before. I think the dentists that are now out there, they're really hot. I think the dentistry industry has the best looking people I know and I think-

Howard: The best-looking?

Grace: Yeah, for men, for women, for-

Howard: So you're saying the new generation. 

Grace: Yeah. The new wave of dentists, they're smarter, they have really good tips on what's going on and they're socially not awkward like the old dentists used to be. They know how to talk to patients and talk to people and relate very well. 

Howard: See my generation, they wouldn't even accept you into dental school unless you used to be a yoga instructor because they wanted people who were used to putting people in awkward positions, communicate and… Yeah, that is good. Now you think that's a generation X or millennial thing? I think the millennials are inherently different. There's so many ways to be able to mathematically say they're different. You look at the people born in my generation from 1950 on, they were having five and a half kids and they were starting them at age sixteen. The millennials are having less than two kids and they're starting them a full decade later. And you see in Japan, the birthrate's under one and the older Japanese people say, "Well, the millennials are lazy," and younger one's like "Look at you, dad. You've worked twelve hours a day, six days a week for these big Japanese companies, and then you come home and drink til you pass out. This is no life. That's not going to be my life. You self-sacrificed yourself for the corporation, and I'm just-" So they're not lazy, they're just not dumb. They're not going to go work twelve hours a day, six days a week for Honda or Mitsubishi or Sony and then die with a bottle of Sake in their hand. They're just like, "There's more to life than this."

Grace: Everybody wants to be an entrepreneur as a millennial. Everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. 

Howard: Yeah, and the other thing is history does repeat itself. Every generation thought the generation behind them was the end of the world because, but you look at every generation, they're just taking it up, up, up. What I'm most excited about, did you see that on The Wire Today, they did an exhaustive study, but 90% of all human history's scientists of all time are alive today and you can track it by published papers, people getting PHDs. But I mean we are in the most explosive growth of humanity. Again, I tell these millennials when I got out of school, your iPhone, that was the power of an IBM mainframe and only the biggest government agencies and corporations own one. Now, everybody has an IBM mainframe in their damn pocket and has access to all the information in the world. I was born in '62, when I was ten years old, my mom went to a garage sale and found a set of encyclopedias that was published in '52. So my first version of the Internet was twenty books, or twenty-five books from A to zero or whatever, and it was twenty year old information. Now my five year old granddaughter's on Wikipedia and Wikipedia's over fifty million pages all updated daily. It's going to be a whole new world. So basically, she's stressed out listening to you because she thinks like you do veneers and she sees all these ads that you can do chairside milling veneers in one appointment, so I should spend $145,000 on chairside milling, do my veneers. Could you do the veneers that you do with a chair side milling or a lab?

Grace: Absolutely not, no, no.

Howard: I know. Don't believe the advertisements.

Grace: No, I even, like right now we're working with a master ceramist because just the typical-

Howard: Which lab?

Grace: IDA, International Dental Arts in Tulsa-

Howard: International Dental Arts lab in Tulsa, Oklahoma?

Grace: Yeah, that lab in itself has a master ceramist and we're working on a case together because just the traditional run of the mill veneers or you can tell them what you want, but still you need somebody who really has an eye for it. And especially in my experience, I don't have that kind of eye who knows how to make that the way the patient is describing and what they're wanting. 

Howard: So now you're in a suburb of Oklahoma City?

Grace: I am in the heart of Oklahoma City.

Howard: Oh, you're in downtown Oklahoma City?

Grace: Well, not downtown. A little bit north of Oklahoma City.

Howard: Are you near the basketball stadium? 

Grace: No, north of that. So I'm in North Oklahoma City about ten minutes away from Edmond. 

Howard: So are you a Oklahoma Thunder fan? 

Grace: Not anymore.

Howard: Can you see this picture? Who am I with?

Grace: No. Who is that? No.

Howard: Number twenty-one, André Roberson. It's funny when you're in an airport, you're always running into people, but I ran into him and I said, "Hey, I'm your biggest fan," and he started laughing but he's a very, very cool guy. But the point I was asking is if you're in downtown Oklahoma and use a lab in Tulsa. Does the lab man ever have to drive to your office to see the patient or does that work? 

Grace: They have a second location in Oklahoma City. 

Howard: Oh, okay, so it's a local lab then.

Grace: Uhmm, but their main headquarters is in Tulsa. 

Howard: And how often do you have to have the lab person actually see the patient in your office or does sometimes the patient goes to see the lab man at the lab? 

Grace: No, the lab has been very accommodating and so anytime I request for them to come over for anything, they're there. They're there all the time if I ask. If I just ask them to come in with a couple of different shades, we have a case that we're working on, she wants a really, really bleach white shade and the bleach shades are not light enough. She wants the Hollywood smile. So we have to have the lab guy come in and let me see what shades you guys have. And so we just work that way and anytime I asked for them to come in for a case that I don't know really what to do, they've been very accommodating. They've been coming and they came and they helped me out and do whatever it needs to be done to get it taken care of to make sure the patient's are happy.

Howard: Do you agree that you could not chairside mill your veneers and have-

Grace: No.

Howard: Yeah, when people say that, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. It's not going to happen and they go, "I went to the seminar," and it's like, "Okay, that person probably works for a company that sells his $150,000 machine because I'm not finding-" We had Michael Apa on the show who has a veneer-only practice in New York City and Dubai. When I asked him that question, he laughed. It can't happen. And then the other point I want to make is that for the young millennials, you're scared because you coming out with so much student loans. Well, just cut your overhead. Grace has said several times how she's got low overhead and the way to learn cosmetics is work with a lab up the street, but you want to learn cosmetics- Every time you want to learn something, you always got to go to the airport, fly across the country and dropped $3,000 on a weekend course. How come every time you have an idea you spend $3,000? You know how you learn cosmetic dentistry? Find it cosmetic dental lab in your own damn town, and not only will they teach you how to do it, they also know the high-end elite dentists in that area. It's the same thing. You want to learn how to place implants? The first thing you do is you're going to go to the airport and fly across the country and drop five grand on a weekend course, when there's a periodontist- And a half of those specialists live in fear and scarcity and "the end of the world's coming", half of them live in hope, growth and abundance. So you go knock on their door and say, "Hey, can I observe you placing implants?" And he looks like a yoga instructor and tries to put you in a downward dog position whatever the crap, well that was an awesome meeting because now you can cross his name off till he's dead. Then go knock on the next periodontist's door. And what I found is about 50% of all the specialist think in hope, growth and abundance and it at least 5% of the orthodontists do. The orthodontists, they should just rename their profession "fear and scarcity". Now, they're mostly scared of Invisalign because they bought 70% of Smiles Direct and they're opening up their- It's like, "Dude, if you're an orthodontist and you think you're going to lose to some chick that was doing mani pedis three days ago and is now doing ortho in a mall or ortho through and mail order packages from Amazon, if that is what you fear, you should just quit today. What are you talking about? A relationship. You know your patients, you talk to them. You're friends, you have a relationship.

And the other thing they don't understand about orthodontic market is the fact that the whole market around the globe is skyrocketing. Again, when I was little, big Catholic families in Kansas- There were seven kids in my family. Seven children was about the average size of a family. Only, the most goofiest looking daughter. It's like, "Guys, you're not going to get anywhere on your luck. You're going to get somewhere if you can shovel and work a hammer and a welder." The most crazy looking girl is the only one that got ortho. Now fifty years later, they're coming in for ortho for the third time at age forty-five and they're dropping six thousand on Invisalign, "because I got this little rotated teeth that I want this to slightly-" And you see that from here, Brian and I, we just lectured in Cambodia. 

By the way, the Asian orthodontic market, to me, almost makes you want to cry. You come to the Western world, especially America, all the girls are shoving all this botox and dermal fillers in their lips, they want to blow up their lips. And when we lectured in Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia, all these gorgeous Asian girls were doing four bicuspid extraction because in their world, they put their finger from their nose to their chin and if their lip touches their finger, they think that's bad. So they pull the bicuspids to pull the teeth back as the incisors support your lips because they want their lips to be behind their nose. Now, I'm looking at these girls thinking there's not one man in Asia who doesn't think you're gorgeous. You're going to pull four of your permanent teeth and spend several thousand dollars? And you're using a droid? You could have upgraded to an iPhone. How did this little girl believe- Because really pulling four bicuspid for cosmetics, that's a form of self mutilation. How do they get in their head- First of all, that they're not gorgeous to begin with? They're just gorgeous and then to where you got to pull four teeth and then spend several thousand- You should start a big advertising campaign that says, "You're gorgeous already. Stop Invisalign now."

Grace: No, I can’t, I can’t do that.

Howard: I can see Invisalign if they're crowded and rotated and whatever, but what I don't get is that facial profile that it's got to touch your chin and your nose and your lip doesn't touch it. I don't get that. Where did that come from? 

Grace: I don't know about that specific case, but I know the Asian culture in itself is really, really focused on the way you should look regardless of what that should is. They'll do whatever it takes and there's a reason why. It's because like in South Korea, the work market is so competitive that if you don't look right, if you don't look good, it's hard to get a job. Even your resumes, your applications has to have a picture of your face with your applications and so you have very high qualified people and now you're down to kind of like the way they look. Do they look the part and then they're going to pick the best looking one so that I think has to do with the survival issue of how competitive the market is there.

Howard: Now, do you still speak Korean? 

Grace: I'm proficient. I wouldn't say I'm fluent. 

Howard: Because you know, you can cut and paste Dentaltown- I don't know if you know this. You can cut and paste the whole website and the app- You could come out with Koreatown, a Korean Dentaltown tomorrow. I'm dead serious. I'm surprised so many countries haven't done that. Russia should- Because when I'm lecturing those countries, like when I was in Cambodia, some of those dentists say, "Well I just lurk on Dentaltown because it's great information on clinical dentistry, but Cambodia is just so different." And I'll say, "Well, start a Cambodian Dentaltown," and they say, "Well we have a Facebook group." And it's like even Facebook will tell you that when you make a post, they only push it out to about 6% max of your user group. They're gaming you all day long because their main deal is to sell ads and when you make a post on a format that you own, you own it. There doesn't have to be ads. You post it, anybody on that thread can see it and all these people on these Facebook, they think, "Well, I have eight gazillion people in my group and I posted this case-" It's like, dude, Facebook will even tell you- In fact, I think they've lowered it now to 3.5% organic reach. So on my Facebook group or my Facebook page, I have three hundred thousand followers on and when I post that podcast, if I want that to be put in front of all three hundred thousand people, I have to give them $1000. If I give them $300, it'll get maybe a hundred thousand views. If I give them just a hundred dollar bill, only fifty thousand. Whereas when I go to Dentaltown, I post on Dentaltown, anybody on Dentaltown can see it. So you should start a Korean Dentaltown. Since you're so much closer, you're five years out of school and at least 25% of our audiences are still in dental school, and I'm thirty years out, you would be so much better to give advice to dental students. What advice would you give to everybody listening to you right now who's still in dental kindergarten school and will be graduating? Gosh, we just had a bunch of graduation classes all last week. So six thousand kids are walking out of dental kindergarten with their eyes wide open. What would you say to them? 

Grace: I would say, when I was in dental school, I thought that the professors didn't really know a lot and I thought they were losers because they were teaching at the school and they probably weren't successful at private practice or whatever. They were not successful out in the real world. The truth is they know a lot and if you can just absorb all the information that you can, the most information from your professors, they really are very knowledgeable and they are really trying to train you for the best dentistry that you can possibly do. That's my opinion. In my school, I felt like that was the case and that's a lot of information. Also, I don't think we took advantage of our education when we're in dental school. There's so much information that we couldn't digest all of it. We just took it and we dumped it for a test to pass to the next round. And if you can somehow store that information, you will become very, very useful in my opinion. Also, when you get out, in my opinion, I think going to a DSO was a great opportunity. You learn so much, you are engrossed with thousands of patients. If you're not confident in a procedure, you get to do it over and over and over until you get really confident and proficient at it and pick up your speed and learn as much as you can about the front office, about how business is run through a DSO. And then if you want to go off on your own, go off on your own. Or if you want to try private associate ship and even that, if you don't stay, at least you're learning how to run a private office like a small business on your own. That would be my advice. School, learn as much as you can from DSOs and try to get as much information and work on as many patients as you can and get all the CEs that you can, and then if not, you can try to go to a private office and learn as much as you can and then open up your own if you're up to it, if you want to.

Howard: Yeah, I can't believe they'll sit there are say, "I worked at Heartland or Aspen and I didn't like it. I quit," and I say, "Gosh, Steve Thorne of Pacific, he has five hundred offices. Aspen has six fifty. Rick Workman of Heartland has eight hundred and thirty. That guy could manage eight hundred and thirty offices. So tell me all the business systems you learn from Heartland. I mean obviously, you stole all their manuals and their systems and you just took-" Some of the most well-run offices I know worked in these large DSOs and they just got all the systems, all the documents, all the everything, even use the same software they're running on and they got an A in that and they say that's where they learn business. So it's all a mindset. You said a mindset. How can you hate dentistry? Well, because that's a mindset. Why do you not like to sell dentistry? Well, that's your mind. Everything is the mindset. Everything is an attitude. Your attitude determines your altitude. So these are the most common questions that the millennials in dental kindergarten always ask. They always ask the same two things. Should I do a residency? Should I specialize? What would you say? She's a junior in dental school and this keeps her up at night. 

Grace: I said if she can specialize, specialize. But if I had a choice, personally, I would do general dentistry and I would do a residency. 

Howard: You would do a residency. And my advice on a residency is, you want to see rare stuff, you got to be in a really huge city of residency and L.A. or Chicago or Houston is better than any residency in Salina, Kansas. That's another thing you're seeing med schools doing, like the med school in Kansas, KU, they're moving their hospitals and registries down to Wichita, Kansas because when you're in a town with four hundred thousand people, you're going to see a lot more diversified cases than when you're up there in Lawrence in a town of fifty thousand. It's just pure math. Even Socrates said the best surgeons are the ones who went to war. Where else could you have that many subjects to slice and dice on battle? But the one thing about specialties- You said general dentistry, I agree. You said do a residency. That is awesome. But specialty, they're gone. Texas just declared them invalid. The guy in Texas, remember that lawsuit? He was advertising that he was a specialist in implantology, so the Texas Dental Association, part of the tripartite system of the American Dental Association sued him, said, "You can't say that because the American Dental Association only has nine specialties and we don't have a speciality in implantology," and the judge said, "The American Dental Association is a club. It's a membership organization. You're not some government agency. You're not the State Board of Dental Examiners. We don't give a shit what you or the (00:57:05) or the Rotary Club says. You're not a regulatory agency." And your husband works in a pediatric dental office and he's a general dentist, right?

Grace: He can probably outperform any pediatric dentist, just like any pediatric dentist. He's so good. I hate to brag about him, but he's amazing. He really is.

Howard: So he can say, "I specialize in pediatric dentistry. I'm a pediatric specialist," because he is. He only does pediatric dentistry and I've seen this happen a dozen times in my thirty years out there. It'd be a small town, there'll be like eight dentists and one of them, they don't have any specialties and that's why the dental schools need to teach all the specialties because- I just posted this yesterday. I find this very interesting and everybody needs to get this. So America. One hundred and forty-four counties have half of the population of the United States total three thousand one hundred and forty two counties. The hundred and forty-four largest counties have a population of a hundred fifty nine million, which is fifty nine point- Oh man, I did a typo. I put fifty nine point three. Ryan, can you go back there on those posts? That's supposed to be fifty. 

And that's what happens when you're fifty five years old and have grandchildren. Even with readers and the largest iPhone they make, you still can't see. 50.3% of total population, and the two thousand two hundred and ninety eight smallest counties have a population of one hundred and fifty nine million, three hundred and thirty-two thousand nine hundred and eighteen, which is 49.7% of the total population. Where was I going with that? So especially in these small towns, there's no specialists. And so in these dental schools, the oral surgeons have high self-esteem and think in hope, growth and abundancy and they teach these dental students how to extract teeth. The endodontists think in hope, growth and abundancy and they teach them how to do molar root canals. The pediatric dentists think in hope, growth and abundancy and they teach them how to do motors. But the orthodontists still don't teach any ortho in school and these schools are paid for by the state government, half the taxes are paid by the flyover states and rural America. 

And then these kids go back and they didn't learn anything in ortho because the orthodontists still say, "Well, you want to learn ortho, you need to go to ortho school." And it's like, "You know what you need to do buddy? You need to go live in Eloy, Arizona for the rest of your life. Not everything is Oklahoma City and Dallas and Houston. Half of America lives in a city that you've never heard of before." But anyway, there'll be a small town and there'll be like eight dentists there, and there's a study club, and one dentist says, "You know what? The only thing I like is molar endo, I hate everything else." I'll fire my hygienists and say they used to call it practice limited to endodontics, and so they were endodontists next time. They were doing all the molar endo and then usually it was the girl. I hate to be sexist, but it was. It was usually the only girl who said, "Well you guys all hate children and I enjoy children, so I'm just going to be practice limited to pediatric dentistry." And then all the six dentists in the middle are like, "Oh man, this is awesome. He's into all the molar endo, she's going to take all the kids. This is awesome." 

And also historically, in dentistry, I think the greatest endodontists in the world never went to endo school. Ben Johnson, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the founder of Thermafil and (unclear 01:00:38) and all that stuff, Tulsa Dental Products, he never went to endo school. John McSpadden in Chattanooga, Tennessee, both of these guys when I was little, I called them up, they thought in such hope, growth and abundance, and I said, "Well, I just want to fly to your office because I could afford it on Southwest Airlines, but I don't know if I could stay in a hotel." Both those guys said, "Well, just stay at my house." So I flew to Tulsa, Oklahoma on Southwest Airlines, Ben Johnson picked me up in his flipping Rolls Royce- No, that was John McSpadden's Rolls Royce. Ben Johnson had some Mercedes thing, and we went and spent the whole day in his office and both of them never went to endo school. So when people say, "Well, I want to go specialize in pediatric dentistry," well, if you got out of school and you found a great pediatric dental practice that would take you in and they would teach you, what's the difference between mentoring from a fifty, sixty year old pediatric dentist versus the one in your residency program, especially if you're going to rural because no one cares about you anyway. 

When you go to rural America, I'm surprised they just don't say the United States of a hundred and forty four large counties- And that's what that last election was about. That last election was about a backlash of all those rural flyover states. They feel like they're not sitting at the desk, so they voted in- I don't want to talk religion, sex, politics or violence, but that last election was all about the flyover states flipping off Washington D.C., you know what I mean? The same thing with the news, when you read the news, they always talk about the Fortune 500. It's always Amazon, Amazon, Amazon. Only 15% of America works for the Fortune 500. 85% of American works for a small business. A farm, a dental office, a restaurant. 85% of the people don't even get mentioned in the press and half the population of America in the two thousand nine hundred ninety eight smallest counties, no one ever talks about them. No one ever cares. It's all about the big city and I'll say it until I'm blue in the face. The dentists that I've seen crushing it the most are the ones that get out of dental school and they go about two hours away from where you could fly out of. So just go to Oklahoma City and say, "Where is the airport?" Drive two hours away from it in any direction and you can do a million dollars your first year and take home three fifty and not participate in any insurance. 

So there's a high price to pay when you come out of California and there are six dental schools and this is your best idea, "Well, I want to have a dental office so that when you lay out the window, you can see the ocean." Oh my God, that is so original. What's your next invention going to be? A bicycle? And then you go an hour inland where no one- Like, who in the hell would want to live in Bakersfield unless you liked meth a lot and then the dentist goes out there and they set up in Bakersfield because everybody else wants to be in Beverly Hills and they just crush it. But I'm just babbling. I can't believe that you're married, and have two kids, and on Memorial Day you got up and talked to me and my homies for an hour. Is there any question I didn't ask that I should've asked? Anything you wish we would have covered? 

Grace: Nope. I do want to say one thing. I feel like I understand where you're coming from with the specialists, but I also see the specialists have their rights as well. I do see that they work hard for the title that they're receiving and the education that they put in. I see their merit too and I can't poo poo on them. I really don't. I see that they have a place and I understand in rural areas you should learn how to do all the things that the dental school doesn't really prepare you to do efficiently and you kind of have to learn it on your own, but in metropolitan areas such as where I am, there is so many specialists that I believe in referring, I do. I don't believe that a dentist in a metropolitan area that has a lot of specialists around them can do everything and everything well, up to the standards that we should-

Howard: I believe in the referral, the team approach, all that stuff, but the difference in my mindset is, my dad, Sonic Drive-In was from Oklahoma City, the invention of Sonic Drive-In and my dad, that's what he did. He got into the Sonic Drive-In franchises. But when you buy a franchise, your franchisee is doing everything to help you grow your business. And let's talk about the American Dental Association. It's a nonprofit. A pediatric dentist, you would think by 2018 before this lawsuit in Texas, they would have gone to all fifty states, got the State Board of Dental Examiners to pass legislation about specialty and all this stuff like that, but they didn't do anything. They were completely caught off guard. Fifty states, wow many of those states for the State Board of Dental Examiners had already passed legislation in their congresses and had their governors sign off that you have to be a specialist in pediatric dentistry or orthodontics or oral surgery. You know what here’s what I’ll  say is if you bought a IHOP or now the number one franchise, they never would have thought- When my dad owned Sonic, McDonald's was number one, Burger King was number two, Wendy's was number three. Now, number one is Chick-fil-A and they're closed on Sundays, so it changed, but when you buy a Long John Silver's or Chick-fil-A, your franchisee is working all day long to help you grow your business and be profitable and who is running all these specialties and dentists? Nonprofits, and they wonder why they're not profitable. So I think the specialty issue, it should have been a huge revolt against these dental associations that are nonprofits. They're nonprofits and they're asleep at the wheel. I used to always criticize the American Dental Association because they would collect several hundred million a year in dues and they couldn't even buy one ad during the Super Bowl. I used to think if they just would've got James Earl Jones for the one show that almost half of Americans are watching. It's the one day in America where Americans eat and consume half the avocados for the entire year. Just one thirty-second commercial with James Earl Jones showing a lower denture slowly falling into the water and splash, and he says, "In the United States, by age sixty-four, 10% of Americans have zero teeth." Then here comes the upper denture. "By age seventy-four, 20% of Americans have zero teeth. Not getting your teeth cleaned every three to six months is the first sign of losing all your teeth." You know how many Americans would have thought, "Honey, call that damn dentist. We haven't been in there for three-" But they're not interested in marketing, advertising, growing our business, and they were caught asleep at the wheel. They recognized nine specialties and they're the (unclear 01:07:50) club. Of fifty State Board of Dental Examiners, none of them recognized it and now they're going to have to go back and they will go back and they'll do it because the specialists are pissed that they spent three years and got a Master's in science behind their name and now anybody can say they're a specialist. Well, who are they going to be mad at? They'll probably be mad at me because I mentioned it. That's why I call it Dentistry Uncensored. If you're a snowflake, don't listen to this show.

But hey Grace Jun, it was such an honor for you to come on this show. I just lectured in Oklahoma a couple of weeks ago. When were you down there when we saw-

Ryan: In Oklahoma?

Grace: It was like April.

Howard: It was in April. Love that state.

Grace: I was at an implant course with Arun Garg so I missed you.

Howard: Yeah, Arun Garg, we've had him on the show. Amazing implant guy. But you're amazing, and thank you so much for spending your Memorial Day morning with me and my homies, giving them such amazing advice. Thank you so much.

Grace: Thank you, I appreciate it.

Howard: And I hope you have a rocking hot day, and I'm sorry about your sixteen year old getting car keys. I hope the next two years go well for you.

Grace: Alright, bye.

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